AIBU to think that it would have been fairer to introduce a graduate tax than increase tuition fees

[Tryingtryingandtrying]

As it stands most graduates effectively pay a graduate tax for most of their working lives. Exceptions to this are those who do not earn enough, those who pay themselves minimum wage out of their own businesses and those whose parents are wealthy enough to pay fees up front as well as all living costs. A graduate tax would mean everyone who benefits from university education contributes, instead of those on middle incomes paying the most of all.

Yabu - it was better to increase tuition fees
Yanbu - a graduate tax would be a fairer way to fund university study

They’d have to stop demanding if fewer people had them. 🤷‍♀️

Perhaps the employers need to change?

valid argument as to why they should but they won’t.

Not only would they need to ring fence the graduate tax, they then need to allocate it to the individual college attended by the tax payer. And some will have gone to multiple universities.

Paying it in fees is the easiest and cheapest way of guaranteeing the funding straight away.

They’d have to stop demanding if fewer people had them.

Fewer people in the UK may have them but what about workers from other countries?

Courses at polytechnics and colleges of higher education were funded also. No tuition fees and a maintenance grant was awarded, same as for universities.

I’m not saying it’s a good idea particularly, I’m just saying it is obviously possible to fund universities through taxation. It used to be done, it could be done again.

People who pay up front for their tuition don't pay the least: they pay less than someone who takes out a loan and pays it back over a period of decades, but they pay much more than people who work in very low wage professions or become long term SAHPs, or acquire disabilities that prevent them from earning, or move abroad.

If you asked the government whether they'd rather everyone pay 9,250 up front or whether they'd rather everyone take out the loan I know what they'd pick.

And not all people from wealthy families go on to become high earners.

Probably Art Schools and Drama Schools too.

What about them? There are so many jobs now being done by graduates where a degree is unnecessary. Employers would just have to stop demanding graduates if they were no longer a glut on the market.

How would a graduate tax work for international students?

I think the current student loan system is better but the interest rates are way too high and penalise people who earn less and can’t pay it off as quickly. The answer would be to go back to charging minimal interest so that it’s fairer for all.

Higher education and going away to university aren't the same thing.
In other countries not only are a large proportion of students weeded out by tough first year exams. There are other ways to get higher education including technical colleges (which can later be made up to a degree). Bear in mind NVQ Level 6 qualications include many things that aren't 'degrees' but they have to meet the same standards.

In the UK, not only do students live away from home, students failing is seen as an issue on part of the university. They are customers who have 'bought' a product, and expect what they e paid for hence everything is watered down.

University should be for the academic. Everyone else goes a different route. That doesn't mean that the latter is any lesser.

BTW anybody who wants to go to university definitely can.. even if they get D's in the A-levels for their chosen subject. We have one of the most educated working age populations in Europe. Has it translated to increased productivity? Nope. Does the general public demonstrate a good propensity for critical thinking? Nope. So what benefit have the degrees brought?

Even something like a FE college where students can do a year close to home would save loads.

Income tax ensures that those who earn more pay more in tax. There’s no more to it.

Tax graduates and they’ll go overseas.

Hmm. I think of bfitain is going to compete globally, then at least hitting oecd averages for tertiary education numbers is a must. 15% would put us with some really poor countries.

At what point do people start paying the graduate tax? I have a big student loan but don't pay it back as I work part time at the moment due to childcare.

Are you aware of what 'tertiary education' includes?
From the World Bank
'Post-secondary education, including trade schools and colleges... With the intent of supporting people into work or further study'.

So many degree educated people don't even know this. Huh.

Wealthy kids have choice. They don’t need a degree. Eg in DH’s family there are a few property millionaires - their kids and grandkids almost always go into professional apprenticeship schemes and are working in IBM, PWC, and various law firms while getting their degrees subsidised by their employer and their accomodation subsidised by the family business.

Where does this end though? There will always be people who can pay for things outright rather than via a loan (with repayments and interest). What's next? Tax people who are able to buy a house outright because they end up paying less than those who buy via a mortgage?

What about them?. What about educated workers from overseas? The city is full of them, young graduates are competing with them too.

There are so many jobs now being done by graduates where a degree is unnecessary.

I don’t disagree, I just think it’s unrealistic to think employers are going to change their entry requirements even if a load of UK dc refuse to go to university.

If employers demand grads and still fill their roles then that proves the point - we have enough grads.

If they can’t fill the roles they will have to make a good case that they actually do require a degree (like engineering) or go back to accepting non grads.

For example, we produce far more law grads than training positions. So in that case reducing the number of law grads would be fine.

They’d have to. If fewer people are graduates they’d have no choice.

They don’t need a degree. Eg in DH’s family there are a few property millionaires - their kids and grandkids almost always go into professional apprenticeship schemes and are working in IBM, PWC, and various law firms while getting their degrees subsidised by their employer and their accomodation subsidised by the family business.

Yes, you could go straight into a mc law firm after A-levels but the competition is fierce.

Yes I am aware, as I dont have a degree but I do have a tertiary education. But the point I make on this was my education was not free just because it was not a degree. I paid a fee. So I'm not sure that shifting from degrees at universities to not degrees at other institutions equals hugely cheaper.

When you look at oecd averages for actual university degrees they are higher than the 15% xenia woukd like. They break down tertiary into the different types.

I’m encouraging my DC to look for graduate apprenticeships. It obviously doesn’t work if you want a to be a doctor/dentist/vet, but my employer fully funds the degree, pays a starting salary of £35k pa, gives valuable work experience and a guaranteed job at the end of it.

They’d have to. If fewer people are graduates they’d have no choice.

But there won’t be fewer graduates in a global market…

Most UK employers don’t operate in a global market. The reason many of them can currently demand graduates is because there are so many of them. Reduce the supply and they’d have to reconsider. After all the UK isn’t exactly an aspirational destination for graduates from elsewhere in the world.