Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this is an insane verdict

297 replies

DancingNotDrowning · 29/10/2024 13:33

pilot who takes lost girl back to his hotel not guilty of kidnap and assault.

unbelievable verdict, poor girl.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2xv1yx83o.amp

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Craftymam · 29/10/2024 22:03

I honestly do not know what is going on in this country.

IfYouLook · 29/10/2024 22:19

DancingNotDrowning · 29/10/2024 20:44

Not necessarily sometimes juries make fucking weird decisions. Sometimes they’re imperfect. Sometimes they hold themselves to impossible standards. Sometimes they believe ridiculous stories.

like I said perhaps a discussion best had with colleagues but I just feel so defeated for women today

I agree with you. I am a solicitor - not criminal but like all qualified barristers and solicitors studied both criminal law and the practice of criminal law. I will defend the presumption of innocence principle, the right of the most heinous criminals to proper representation and so on til the cows come home.

But dear God having served on a jury where the defendant was SO clearly and blatantly guilty (a fact that was later confirmed by the judge in her summing up at sentencing) I was horrified by the perverse thinking of some of my fellow jurors. I literally had to fight tooth and nail to get some of them to put aside a deep dislike of the victim in the case to even engage in basic common sense. It made me very sad really.

The issue with “beyond all reasonable doubt” is that it’s very hard to convey to jurors what kind of doubt might be reasonable. The burden of proof is not 100% absolute certainty but juries get very caught up in the idea of “well I can’t be 100% sure of what happened”.

It’s a generalisation - but who gets hurt behind closed doors? Women and children that’s who. So I feel they bear the brunt of that lack of ability of some jurors potentially to understand that sexual assault, rape, child abuse can be hard to prove.

More so than violence against men that may be more likely to happen on the street, outside the pub where CCTV can “show” them.

It makes me so sad. I don’t know what the answer is mind you.

DancingNotDrowning · 29/10/2024 22:41

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

MimiSunshine · 29/10/2024 22:52

Icedbear · 29/10/2024 17:44

You think it's a travesty that there is an aquital when there's reasonable doubt?

Yes because reasonable doubt doesn’t mean someone didn’t commit a crime. It just means the evidence isn’t strong enough to convict.

Thepurplecar · 29/10/2024 23:10

RadioBamboo · 29/10/2024 20:56

simply isn't fit for purpose.

To be fair, by the logic of your own post, that is not its purpose.

Quite, and if any government cared about takling violence against women and children they'd set up a commission to consult on what system set up to ensure justice for women and children would look like.

What we have makes a mockery of us all.

Remaker · 29/10/2024 23:51

I’m glad some people read the article through to the end. At least we can be reassured he didn’t walk free.

Having been on a jury I can’t share the confidence that the right decision is always made. It was in the case I was involved with and the convicted man did eventually admit he’d been lying about his innocence prior to sentencing. But we had more than one person on my jury who was ready to say not guilty in the face of overwhelming evidence purely because they didn’t want to be responsible for someone going to jail. The accused was a man in his 40s who led a sophisticated drug importation ring, not some kid who’d been led astray.

ADadofa9yearoldgirl · 30/10/2024 00:09

As a dad of a 9 year old girl, I find this man's actions and excuses utterly appalling. It makes me sick that someone could do that. If I found a lost child I'd get another person, a female, straight away and take her advice. There is so much more to this. I can't believe he will be let off. He will re-offend. It's sickening. I dread his next offence.

Fingerscrossedfor2021HK · 30/10/2024 04:53

I cannot fathom this verdict. If he had done this to my daughter he would wish that he had been imprisoned for life. Shame on the British justice system.

Saschka · 30/10/2024 05:10

Remaker · 29/10/2024 23:51

I’m glad some people read the article through to the end. At least we can be reassured he didn’t walk free.

Having been on a jury I can’t share the confidence that the right decision is always made. It was in the case I was involved with and the convicted man did eventually admit he’d been lying about his innocence prior to sentencing. But we had more than one person on my jury who was ready to say not guilty in the face of overwhelming evidence purely because they didn’t want to be responsible for someone going to jail. The accused was a man in his 40s who led a sophisticated drug importation ring, not some kid who’d been led astray.

We had the opposite on our jury - a woman who insisted on voting guilty in the face of significant reasonable doubt, explicitly because the defendant was black “and they’re all mixed up with guns”. She’d decided on her verdict the moment she saw the defendant. She reckoned “she could see it in his eyes”. Just shocking.

We didn’t convict (majority verdict) but if there’d been a few more like her on the jury that poor sod would have got 10 years in prison.

BlueBerryBad · 30/10/2024 05:35

Very disturbing case. Shocking but unsurprising that he was not found guilty such is the way with the legal system. However, we can safely surmise that the guy is dangerous. The CA court findings make for very unsettling reading. He needs to be imprisoned.

TheaBrandt · 30/10/2024 05:58

Ifyoulook how were you on jury service if you’re a solicitor? We’re exempt?

Boobygravy · 30/10/2024 06:32

ADadofa9yearoldgirl · 30/10/2024 00:09

As a dad of a 9 year old girl, I find this man's actions and excuses utterly appalling. It makes me sick that someone could do that. If I found a lost child I'd get another person, a female, straight away and take her advice. There is so much more to this. I can't believe he will be let off. He will re-offend. It's sickening. I dread his next offence.

It says in the report a 57 year old man was arrested at the court and remains in custody. On suspicion of possessing indecent images of children.
Presuming it’s him then the jurors reading this may realise they fucked up.

Fingerscrossedfor2021HK · 30/10/2024 06:47

TheaBrandt · 30/10/2024 05:58

Ifyoulook how were you on jury service if you’re a solicitor? We’re exempt?

Not anymore (I think - I’m not in the UK).

Babycatsarenice · 30/10/2024 06:48

This is a grave miscarriage of justice! He was guilty as soon as he took the girl to his hotel room WTF. I'm minded to protest this at the courts

RadioBamboo · 30/10/2024 07:02

Saschka · 30/10/2024 05:10

We had the opposite on our jury - a woman who insisted on voting guilty in the face of significant reasonable doubt, explicitly because the defendant was black “and they’re all mixed up with guns”. She’d decided on her verdict the moment she saw the defendant. She reckoned “she could see it in his eyes”. Just shocking.

We didn’t convict (majority verdict) but if there’d been a few more like her on the jury that poor sod would have got 10 years in prison.

Thankfully to convict there usually needs to be a unanimous verdict.

Wouldbedriver · 30/10/2024 07:06

Sadly he’s unlikely to receive a prison sentence for possession of images.

Whosaywhatnow · 30/10/2024 07:12

I haven't read the full thread I'm afraid so not sure if this has been discussed, but he was found not guilty at Isleworth court on Tuesday, and this is at the bottom of the BBC article:

On Tuesday, the Metropolitan Police arrested a 57-year-old man at Isleworth Crown Court on suspicion of possessing indecent images of children.

He was taken to a police station and remains in custody.

maddening · 30/10/2024 07:14

Stichintime · 29/10/2024 17:18

I think he was found not guilty because there just wasn't the physical evidence to make a decision 'beyond reasonable doubt', not because anyone believed him.

So in historical sexual assault cases there is no dna evidence so it seems you can convict without it - the man wears a condom he is clear - noting the jury asked if there was dna evidence.

Chowtime · 30/10/2024 07:25

That man is so dangerous it's frightening

DancingNotDrowning · 30/10/2024 07:43

TheaBrandt · 30/10/2024 05:58

Ifyoulook how were you on jury service if you’re a solicitor? We’re exempt?

Not since 2004 in England and Wales

OP posts:
ChillysWaterBottle · 30/10/2024 07:55

It's a terrible verdict. It's ok - important - for normal people to acknowledge that. Juries are often not given all the information. I wish people could see some of the tricks Defence use to withhold relevant and important information (in at least two of my cases, confessions). Even when they have enough information to make a good choice, juries often make utterly stupid and baffling decisions. Especially the case when it involves any sort of MVAWG or sexual assault. I've seen some of the worst men you'll ever meet acquitted.

This verdict is a travesty and he will do it again.

NarnianQueen · 30/10/2024 08:57

It's insane. If nothing else, surely an innocent man would understand how it works look to take a lost child to his home, away from the spot where she lost her parents?

The fact she has a drug in her system and claims he abused her... The defence seems to be "but he says he didn't do it".

CommonAsMucklowe · 30/10/2024 08:59

Anewuser · 29/10/2024 19:27

I’ve always wanted to do jury service but have never been invited.

My husband says I would never be picked anyway because I believe, “they’re all guilty and we should have the bastards.”

It seems very hard to see how he was found not guilty.

I'm the same, if the CPS has said go for it then they're guilty!

IfYouLook · 30/10/2024 09:03

TheaBrandt · 30/10/2024 05:58

Ifyoulook how were you on jury service if you’re a solicitor? We’re exempt?

Not the case for quite some time. I was first called in 2004 after the exemption was lifted but didn’t serve. Served in 2019. There were two solicitors on our jury by coincidence.

There is Law Society guidance on how to behave though:

“However, the guidance advised solicitors not to express any advice or opinion on the law or any direction on the law given by the judge, or on the reasons for the jury being asked to leave the court during a trial even if asked “

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 30/10/2024 09:06

If that man had been say a Somalian migrant, I imagine a very different outcome