"I was brought up to respect my parents and not tp challenge them"

[Stripeysuitcase]

I hope it's ok to post here - I'm not sure what board to use.

TLDR: how do you challenge the outdated opinion of parents are always right just because they're your parents?

I am going through a period of change through therapy and self help to heal a lifetime of unhealthy behaviour around people pleasing, anxiety and negativity largely as a result of undiagnosed ADHD (until my late 20s). Part of this process is learning how to deal with conflict within my family. I am now no contact with my identical twin after a painful lifetime of manipulation and very damaging behaviour on her part. Within my family I have recognised that I am never validated, always the scapegoat, and that noone is EVER wrong. Essentially, the only acceptable view I can have is that my parents are perfect. They are incredibly defensive and they can't see that they can hurt me even if they didn't intend to.

Despite being nearly 40, my mum expects me to just automatically listen to her, never challenge her hurtful behaviour, and essentially take her view because she is older. She regularly uses phrases like "I was raised to be quiet and that daughters should respect their mothers". This is usually in response to me calling her out on rude, hurtful or disrespectful behaviour towards me. She was brought up in quite a strict household, silence at the dinner table, boarding school, very authoritative military father etc. I was not brought up this way.

I absolutely cannot stand this phrase. I think it is incredibly outdated and essentially a way to shut me down. I haven't been able to challenge it yet. I am terrified to bring anything up, even though I use the right approach (learnt through therapy etc). my mum will always turn it around to being the victim (e.g. "Ohhh that's it, I'm a terrible mother, it's all my fault, I try so hard but it's never good enough etc). Ironically my mum has a long history of poor mental health yet won't accept that this may affect others.

Has anyone got any tips on how to challenge this phrase and behaviour? I go in calmly but usually end up in tears despite trying so hard.

What tends to happen is everyone gets set into fixed roles in families and a certain dynamic is created.

I was brought up in a similar way to your mum. I wasn't allowed to express opinions or challenge my parents. I was bullied by my family and that was my role.

I had therapy and broke out of the role but it was tough! Now, many years and much drama, later, I voice very clear opinions.

If your mum upsets you then limit your time with her. Leave if you feel yourself becoming upset. End the phone conversation if she is being rude.

You could let her know why but don't get into an argument with her about it.

Except when they're being unreasonable and borderline abusive.

I don't really understand why you put up with this. You may not be able to get your mother to change, but you shouldn't put up with this. It's clear from your post there are no consequences to her for treating you badly. You need to be mire prepared to walk away calmly and limit contact.

She regularly uses phrases like "I was raised to be quiet and that daughters should respect their mothers". This is usually in response to me calling her out on rude, hurtful or disrespectful behaviour towards me.
--> You could say: "I don't think you're quiet at all and I think respect must cut both ways, especially in adult relationships." Or: "When you were a girl, corporal punishment was common, but's now considered abuse, which can cause lifelong emotional harm."

I'm going for the jugular here, but she's toxic, and you need a backbone. Do you still live with her? Are you financially dependent on her? What on earth is there to be "terrified" of? That she'll get aggressive? If so, stay calm, get up, say you have enough self-respect not to put up with this, and walk out calmly.

I usually ask what they understand by the term respect. Or say well that doesn't work for me. Or put the phone on speaker when I'm doing the dinner and say mmm every now and then. Sometimes I just hang up.

Essentially you won't ever win the argument with this type of person so it's really up to you how you choose to respond. LC is an option.

I gave up with my parents and went NC.

You've tried to get your point of view across and she's refused to listen. You don't have to keep trying forever.

Always use i statements to be clear you are not saying your view is perfect or universal - but ot is what you think.

‘I feel hurt when I am not listened to’ rather than ‘you never listen to me’

I believe in being respectful too to others particularly I was brought up to be respectful to older people - but it is hard dealing with toxic people .

I was brought up with ‘I’m big - you’re small , I’m right, you’re wrong.’ It is very hard to move away from these roles. I always try and state my opinions without reference to theirs. E.g. I would say ‘I’m voting orange party’ rather than saying ‘I’m not a purple voter like you’ they will always criticise your choices and opinions as they see anything different to theirs as alien and wrong .

It’s hard to assert yourself when you have so much negativity/ back story.

if they chose to interpret anything you say as ‘I must have been such a bad mother etc’ - remember that is their issue. Don’t engage with it as it is emotional blackmail - it is their insecurity and you have to learn to see that it is their problem not yours.

keep working in therapy and you will find a way through it. Learning to stand up for yourself without resorting to trampling in others toes / is hard - and they will do everything in their power to try and make you feel bad.

don’t let them win. You are an individual and are entitled to your thoughts and feelings and opinions - you are an adult and don’t have to lay the ‘good compliant child’ role anymore

'Well, respect is not really respect if it has been coerced - it has no value.'
"In adult relationships respect is a two-way street'.
'I can disagree with you and still respect your right to your opinions.'
'You can guilt me into keeping quiet, but you must know that it damages our relationship. Wouldn't you rather my respect was freely given?'

Not much advice from a 45 yo whose parents were emotionally abusive, apart from drop the tears, find your anger.
Found mine a 13.

Thanks everyone for the replies so far. They are really helpful. Essentially this is an issue 'now' as I am learning to have and enforce healthy boundaries, and also tell people how I feel instead of bottling it up due to fear.

It is SO hard putting this into practice. My mum inevitably gets upset and it becomes about her. If I come back with any of these replies she will get hysterical and mean. The hardest thing is that they team up, mum is NEVER wrong in Dad's eyes. When we talk privately he does come round to seeing how her behaviour is upsetting in the least and damaging to me, but would never intervene or back me up. My mum would absolutely lay into him I think.

I could give examples but I don't want to waffle on. The biggest issue is not taking accountability and being extremely defensive, then ramping up the emotions and victim blaming when I stand my ground.

I feel very scared to go low contact. As I don't speak to my sister anymore they are the only family I have left. I feel very codependent on them for emotional support (when it's not to do with them or my sister).

One example is my mum is upset that I don't talk to my sister, and wants me to comfort her and speak to my sister again because my mum finds it painful and feels like a failed parent. But she is unable to comfort me or acknowledge the hurt my sister has caused.

I think it's one thing at a time, and tacking this phrase may be helpful. Or it may make it worse 😑 I know I will have to choose my words very carefully.

I can't claim credit for this, but I think it's very useful:

Some people view respect as something you pay to someone's individual person. Some people view respect as something you give to authority.

And the most toxic kind of person believes that if you don't respect them as an authority, they won't respect you as a person.

It's a grim phrase, alright. It is perfectly possible to respect someone without always agreeing with them or doing what they say, but your parents may not see it like that.
I'd be inclined to say Well, Mum, times have changed, thank goodness, and I'm not going along with that way of doing things. If you want to have any kind of relationship with me it'll be on the basis that we both respect each other and can discuss things without being unpleasant or rude. Are you up for that?

I feel very scared to go low contact. As I don't speak to my sister anymore they are the only family I have left. I feel very codependent on them for emotional support

Are they actually giving you emotional support though? Or are they just giving you additional emotional burden to carry?

She regularly uses phrases like "I was raised to be quiet and that daughters should respect their mothers".

That's when you say that you respect those who show respect so she has some work to do to qualify...
If your family makes you feel bad there is no obligation to see them. You're an adult and you get to choose the people you think of as family.

I think I can identify two main issues with this phrase. Firstly it is usually brought up in a way to actually dismiss the respect I have (or am trying to build) for myself. E.g. I'll respect myself by voicing how I feel and enforcing my boundaries in healthy and calm ways. Mum's response infers this as disrespectful to her when she is the cause. Does that make sense?

Secondly it's used as a way to shirk responsibility for her actions. I.e. she's automatically right because she's my mum. I don't subscribe to that and she is very emotionally immature.

I actually genuinely feel less respect for her when she says this as she is essentially telling me that she has no respect for me or my feelings.

Unfortunately she works for me occasionally, and whilst I am trying to disentangle myself from this, it's not always that simple. So walking away when she does this, e.g. in the middle of a job, would be detrimental to myself.

One example from this week: I asked her to do a job. She started doing it wrong, and it would have meant me redoing it. When I very calmly and politely told her it needed a different approach and asked her to look at it a different way, she started shouting over me, insisted she was right, and started telling me that I was being disrespectful. When I calmly stood my ground an she stormed off. I then get a racing heart, feel sick, and shaken up. When she comes back she wants to just 'forget it and move on'. There's lots of "Ohhhh anyway...!" When I try to address issues. I couldn't for example then being this up and say 'mum, I felt quite disrespected myself then and found that situation challenging, can you please help me understand how to avoid it, without me just having to watch you do the job wrong?" She would start shouting and saying 'ohh I'm trying me best, I'm sick of how you treat me, I'm always the one that's wrong, I know what I'm doing!!!!!' etc. it's exhausting.

On paper this is very easy to address but in reality my mum's volatile responses, the impact on my mental health and my sometimes necessary reliance on them makes it so hard to do.

@redskydarknight not often, no. Yes sometimes in terms of my work and relationship but not at all in terms of my family and issues with my sister.

I have started to dislike my mum and how she treats me and I find that so so sad. She used to be the most important person to me and I couldn't imagine life without her. Now I feel anxious and afraid of the next conflict.

It seems the more work I do on myself and the more I try to respect myself and my feelings the worse it gets.

Anything I say like "can you perhaps try to take some accountability?" She'll say "well are you going to?" Etc. etc. etc.

There's absolutely no point trying to work out what to say. Nothing will work.

Focus on disengaging emotionally and don't waste the years ahead trying to change your parents. My mum is 85 and she still has absolutely no self-awareness or understanding of how her behaviour has affected everyone in the family. Believe me, I've tried every approach and nothing works...she will never be the mother you want her to be. I had a dad like yours too. I strongly believe he went deaf in order to cope with mother. It's hard to know how to feel about them isn't it? Once and only once in many years, my dad suddenly shouted "Well how do you think I deal with it 24/7?!!". I felt relieved at the time but it's such weak behaviour.

I understand the fear too of the reaction. It's not that you're scared of her exactly but the loss of energy and the days or weeks of feeling frustrated. I get all the same lines - it's the narcissist script. I think they must be robots who've all received the same download and they're programmed so that they can't process any new information. Don't give her any more of your energy. I used to despise my mother but now I just feel nothing. That's the best you can hope for.

As an employee, she should be fired and you should not be employing someone who behaves like that. It's gross misconduct.

As a source of emotional support, she's even worse.

You are actively enabling her behaviour by putting up with it. You blame your dad, but you're nearly 40 and just as much an enabler. Setting boundaries does NOT involve desperately seeking a wording that won't upset her. She'll be upset regardless. You need to be ok with that. And you need to be ok with limiting contact and telling her why.

@LimeSqueezer and @CharlotteLucas3 very helpful from you both, I appreciate it. Just feeling heard, even by strangers, is so appreciated.

I think there are two things really stopping me from sticking up for myself or going low contact. Firstly I desperately just want the love and support from my mum and am clinging onto hope of her changing. And the second is that I know it will genuinely cause her pain and I don't want to do that to her. She isn't a monster.

Mum: "I was raised to xyz"
You: "And I wasn't - remember?".

I think you're giving to much weight to the idea that standing up to her will "cause her pain". She's been pretty effective in using that fear to shut you up, right? You stand up to her, she acts "upset", you back down. She knows what she's doing.