To be at my absolute wits’ end?

[GeneralChaos1]

I don’t know how to get through to my 11 (nearly 12) year old son.

He is like Jekyll and Hyde. Can be an absolute dream, tells us he loves us, helpful, works hard at school, polite to people he meets.

However he can absolutely flip and speak to me like shit. He swears at me and his siblings, is so mean to his siblings all the time saying things like “you’ve got no friends, nobody likes you” etc. Also calls his brother fat a lot. He’s not, not that that matters but I can already see it having an affect on him.

I’ve just overheard him calling him an idiot and “stupid as fuck”. He swears DAILY when he speaks to me and he squares up to me too. He’s a lot smaller than me but if this behaviour continues then it’s going to become a very scary situation for me.

He spoke to me awfully at the weekend and I told him that if he ever spoke to another woman when he is older like that (he wouldn’t dare now) I would not be able to take his side in any way shape or form. It’s vile, and he speaks with so much contempt.

We have both (me and his father) asked him what’s wrong and why he feels it’s ok to speak to us like that.

I feel that we have sufficient boundaries in place for him. He does not have too much screen time (an hour a day on games), he has a regular bed time and gets enough sleep. He has one on one time with one of us. He is lucky enough to live in a nice house.

we speak to him regularly about what is going on for him, he says he’s happy. But he regularly says he’s not a nice person and the reason he speaks that way is because “he’s stupid”. We have spoken to him about how humans are all flawed and we make mistakes or have moments of behaving badly but as long as we reflect on our behaviours and how we treat others and constantly look to improve ourselves then we are doing our best.

He has a group of friends and is chatty and lovely with them, we have close family and they all say how wonderful he is. Honestly, people would be shocked if they saw the way he treated me.

the one thing that is a big sticking point is my husband gets very angry when he is really rude to the point of ending up shouting at him, which I hate. He has been doing a bit better recently as I’ve told him that I do not wish to live in a house where people communicate their unhappiness by shouting at one another. It just riles up the situation and makes it worse. I do feel he’s quite nit picky at all the children though. If something has been left out or they make random silly noises, or they struggle to get to sleep.

yet he’s a very organised and supportive hands on dad that spends a lot of time with the kids and they all adore him.

any advice -
is this normal behaviour for a 12 year old?! I’m seriously worried he’s going to be an abusive partner one day. (Oh I forgot to mention that he gaslights - only this evening he has denied something that I clearly heard him say). Also worry that his 2 siblings will not want a relationship with him when he’s older as he is hideous to them.

AIBU to have these fears and be at my wits’ end?

When you say he won't engage with MH support- what was offered? Is it via the school or an actual therapist?
Can you look into anger management therapy for children/teens (if you can afford it privately) because whatever the reason he is feeling like this I'd suggest learning better tools to manage his emotions is a non negotiable. I suspect there is something underlying and pushing private counseling to get to the bottom of it would be good but if you really don't think you can force him to go to that then I think the anger management route would be essential.

Very remorseful after bad behaviour. I do wonder about autism (also in husband if I’m honest!) although from making referrals through work I really don’t think he’d get a diagnosis. Not that he would need it to get support that he would need.

There’s definitely always been an element of the after - school restraint collapse from him since being very little. And obviously he has just started secondary so he’s absolutely trying his best at school and thriving there… but not so much at home.

From my experience I’d suggest friends use this language at school. Probably smart enough to wait until teachers aren’t listening.

and yeah an increase in feelings of frustration definitely happened for us with our son around this age. He’s allowed to feel frustrated, he isn’t allowed to call names etc.

Keep doing what you’re doing, I do think he will learn and be fine.

if you’re really keen to do something further have you explored martial arts? Controlling one’s temper seems to be a key learning/requirement.

I think both him and husband both need to do this!! But mainly husband because I honestly think if he his male role model managing his emotions in a mature manner, he would do the same

My son was like this during the first few months of high school. It was awful. I can give a bit of hope though - it calmed down, he had been very stressed and overwhelmed at the time and now is (mostly) a much calmer, less aggressive teenager. Still swears a bit from time to time but honestly nothing like what he had been. We just put it down to hormones and stress from starting high school. Give him some natural consequences and sounds like he gets a lot of love too - and hopefully things will settle down

He is just emotional and perhaps a bit bullied in school

I think you've hit the nail on the head - he is having to try extra hard at school and then is finally able to let things out at home . He's probably exhausted too ( yr 7 DS here too)
I would try saying things like ' I can see you are feeling really angry...." " I'm wondering if it's hard work having to try so hard at school all day?' And see what comes back .
Lots of love and understanding, lots of praise for the good stuff . He is safe to be himself with you guys .
Also have a look at the anger iceberg - you could show him and see if he identifies any of the emotions that sit under the water level

If he squares up to you tell him to step back and that attitude is not acceptable. 'Go to your room to cool off'. You don't ask him why he's swearing at you you tell him it's not allowed ('don't you dare talk to me like that'), make a no swearing allowed rule, a swear box might be good, your DH can use it too if he's swearing. This will get worse if you don't sort it out now while he's still a child and you have other children who are learning these bad habits and learning that you can't (won't) do anything about it.

Funnily enough we’ve literally just been looking at the anger iceberg together. He says he feels like someone has got a remote control and taking over him 😞

As above - we are firm and are doing something about it. But it is continuing.

Mother of 3 boys here. The hormones at that age are unreal, I remember all of mine being horrendous at this age. My youngest is 13 now and much better

Oh love him , there is a great book called ' the hidden chimp' you made me think of it when you said about him saying remote control ... look into the chimp paradox . You can work through book together and look at how he can get control of his inner chimp.
Also, how amazing that he is doing so well at school and showing everyone what a great boy he is 🙂

We’ve done this too 🤣 admittedly when he was much younger but we still refer back to it. I’ve casually placed The Chimp Parodox on my husband’s bedside table too but so far he’s yet to pick it up

I don't know how you can help him improve his behaviour, but my guess is also that he's hearing such comments (you've got no friends, you're fat, swearing) at school. He could be being bullied or alternatively as PP have said, he's finding the step up to secondary stressful (and who would blame him) and acting out at home as a release.

Does he square up to his dad and swear at him? And when your DH shouts at him, is he completely out of control, swearing and screaming-type shouting or just very cross and making it known? IMO, this type of behaviour (prepared to be flamed for this) requires a pretty robust rebuke. Not raving, but I would 100% raise my voice in response to threatening behaviour.

I guess what I'm driving at is (assuming your DS doesn't direct this behaviour at your DH)- is it the case that he directs it at you and his siblings because he's scared of his dad, because your DH really crosses the line into out-of-control shouting? Or is it that he knows that it is 100% a line that he cannot cross with his father because he'll be put in his place?

If it's the latter, I'd be reflecting on whether however I was dealing with it was actually (from my son's perspective) effective, or whether he's not really getting the message from you that he simply CANNOT speak to you like that. The idea of you sticking up for a hypothetical future woman doesn't make sense to me- he's already speaking to a woman like this (i.e. you) and he needs to stop.

I also agree with PPs that he might be hearing stuff like this at school either witnessing or being subjected to bullying, for example. Keeping the communication open and talking to him about his feelings/school experiences etc is really important and it's great that you do that, but he still shouldn't get to treat you and his siblings like this. Depending on the nature of how your DH deals with it, maybe he does need really firm discipline in the moment, and I'd be tempted to let that play out.

It also might help if your DH could stop the 'nitpicking'. The one big message you want your DS to receive is that he isn't allowed to swear at and threaten people. In your/your DH's shoes, I'd be letting the small stuff slide (especially if you think he's generally under stress) and focus on dealing with this main issue. The swearing and squaring up is unacceptable, but it may improve if he doesn't feel like someone is always on at him.

But without knowing exactly how^^ your husband shouts, it's really difficult to say.

It appears to me you’ve been in your present school for sufficient time to establish your reputation and boundaries, that you can discipline quietly and effectively, don’t see the behaviour you’re encountering at home and don’t like your DH’s louder approach.

If an individual in a classroom behaves aggressively when stressed by workload and exam pressure the best course, I find, is to impose a distance. I get them to leave the room to calm down, suggest five minutes of “corridor duty”. It stops the situation escalating and prevents more serious consequences.
Self-imposed time out from fraught situations at the end of hard-working days might work for your son when he is tired, frustrated, on the verge of anger. I’d encourage him to recognise the first signs, and praise him to the hilt for his mature, controlled response.
It’s not easy being a teenager, having hormones ambush you. As parents we prefer our children to be angels in school and devils at home rathe than the other way round. The suggestion of sport made up thread is a good shout. I swim at the end of each day to offload the stress.

What sort of shouting does your DH do?

If he's shouting (for example) you're a bad person you're so lazy you're a fucking nightmare of a child then it might be a clue as to where this might be coming from,

Having said that many boys (and girls for that matter) do go through a period where they are very difficult and swear/are very badly behaved etc.

Your DH shouting at him might escalate this or might not, it does very much depend on the child.

It can take some time for consequences to change behaviour with teens - it's a bit like toddlers - they do grow out of tantrums and the consequences do help but it isn't an overnight process by any means.

If his dad shouting at him gets him into a state of complete anger so that it's a full on stand up row then it's probably counter productive.

I would say it warrants further investigation, but I wouldn't say that denying having said something (i.e. lying) to get out of trouble constitutes "gaslighting".

Just to reassure you, one of my close friends is a secondary teacher working with kids who have SEN and has endless patience and always uses absolute best practice with her students. She’s had a lot of trouble with one of her sons and will sometimes lose control and shout at him. Then she’s filled with remorse of course. Family members push our buttons in a way students don’t.

I’d be cautious about attributing any of this too closely to your DH’s behaviour. It’s just going to drive a wedge between the two of you when you need to be united. It genuinely sounds like your DS is struggling with his emotions and not just copying what he sees from his dad.

Does he play sport or do martial arts or similar? Our DS16 has always been explosive, emotional and overly self critical and the absolute best thing for him has been team sports that he loves with really caring but firm coaches who he genuinely wants to please. He also has an unofficial mentor in one of our neighbours who is really interested in the sports DS plays and they talk for ages about the nuances of it all, which he will accept from the neighbour whereas if DH asks questions DS can get defensive and accuse him of being critical.

And
Nope. Should I? Is that where I’m going wrong??

Yep, you should stop doing that. Because to your son you’re just undermining your husband when he’s trying to stand up for you. To him, he’s not only “gotten away” with disrespecting you but he’s also got you taking his side in his disrespect. So he’s “won” in the scenario, and he’s also learned that he can treat you like dirt and you still leap to defend him which lessens his respect for you further.

This was the exact dynamic with my brother and parents. He would be foul to our mother but she would still try to intervene when our father stepped in. He had zero respect for her because he thought it was pathetic (his words) that she would still try to prevent him from being yelled at, which he knew he deserved. He later said that he wished she’d butted out because he felt that when puberty/testosterone were at play, boys needed their fathers to stand up to them and “remind them to control themselves because there were stronger men that could kick their arse.”

So yeah, while I overall don’t think that yelling is the best approach I also think your son’s behaviour and aggression have escalated beyond the point of addressing that now. Once he’s through this rough phase you can revisit that issue with your husband privately, but definitely don’t bring it up in front of the children. Always present a united front unless there’s something seriously wrong.

Do you ever tell him it's unacceptable to do it to YOU? Because it is. Please stick up for yourself and demand the respect you deserve.

It's fine to warn him about hypothetical women in the future, and hypothetical consequences. But the modelling and demanding of respect begins at home. You seem reluctant to tell him off for what he is doing to you. Not liking it is enough of a reason to ask him not to as well.

He'll soon grow taller than you and it's fucking scary being squared up to then. My brother used to do it to me. And yes, I hated him for a lot of my young adulthood. This really needs nipping in the bud now.

I have to be honest ... I don't condone shouting at children generally at all. But, when a young person 'squares up' to their mother and behaves in a threatening manner, I think that a raised voice is reasonable? There has to be a difference in consequences for a regular strop or teenage mood (little consequence as we all have bad days) and bullying those you live with (told you are massively overstepping and you must stop right now).

If your husband bullies your children in the manner that your son is at times bullying you, then yes there's a cycle and your husband is a problem.

If your husband is trying to teach your son that his behaviour is categorically unacceptable and actually that you shouldn't treat anyone this way, then that's slightly different no?

Your son is mimicking his father's behaviour but on a more extreme scale because he hasn't yet fully developed his self regulation skills.

You said your husband "nit picks" - that's what your son is doing with his siblings.

Your husband shouts - your son is being aggressive too.

I'm willing to bet your husband speaks to you the same as your son does but just on a more moderated scale because he is an adult and has learned to temper it back.

The fact your son doesn't do it to others outside the home shows that he knows it's not nice and has learned to self regulate, to a degree.

I bet your husband is one of those "too blokes" that everyone loves but behind closed doors is a bit of a knob to his family.

Nope, he’s actually lovely. Very considerate and would never speak to me that way. Which is why it maddens him I think. As said upthread, I suspect ASD in him. He’s very much a black and white thinker and when he sees wrong he wants to call it out. But it completely triggers him seeing son behave this way and he doesn’t deal with it well (although now I’m wondering if he is dealing with it well and that’s what son needs from reading some of these responses - interesting getting other perspectives.)

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