To think “rude” has little meaning

[StolenChanel]

I don’t really know how to word this properly, but I come from an English-speaking country which is very culturally different to Britain. Think loud music, loud laughter and sarcasm as conversation starters. I knew a man with one leg whose nickname was Runner, for example. Everyone called him this, including himself. These things are pretty standard in my culture, but I can imagine most Brits being horrified by it. Also things like “please” and “thank you” don’t hold as much as importance in day to day life.

I was brought up in a family who wanted me to “survive” British culture, so the ability to code switch is second nature to me and I have no problem presenting myself as “polite” to British people. DH, on the other hand was raised far more immersed in our culture than I was (AND he’s autistic), so he really struggles with what most would consider to be “basic manners”. I used to be incredibly embarrassed by it when out in public, but over the years I’m starting to care less and less as I realise that the British way does not = the “right” way. (I would love to be able to switch off and just not care like DH does, but it’s so deeply ingrained in me that I can’t.)

My question is, AIBU to think that rudeness or politeness are often simple cultural differences as opposed to a “good” or “bad” upbringing?

I grew up in a multicultural household and my non English parent is a) often confused why she has upset someone - very direct country way of speaking, no please and thank you as separate words, will talk loudly about other people as she complimenting their bun or something so they should be happy not upset. B) can be put out that we haven't been invited to a neighbours daughter's wedding, or that someone has called by her first name even though they are younger to her, or that someone hasn't eaten all the huge amount of food she has offered to some poor sod who's come round to drop off a letter or some such.
I love the differences though but can see how wars start over a perceived slight!

Absolutely.

Rudeness is breaking the cultural rules.

Whether something is rude or not is definitely cultural.

That said, if you go live in another culture or even just visit on holiday, you should really be mindful to not be rude in their society. I mean, it's not a legal obligation (most of the time), just seems rude in itself to not care if you're rude to the people of that country.

We're thinking of visiting Japan at some point and there's a lot of etiquette there that isn't a thing here. I think it would be wrong for me and my partner to ignore that, for example, and just run around being rude. I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking we were brought up badly if we did.. because maybe we were, if we weren't respectful of what's rude in the culture of the country we're visiting. Kinda like a baseline for rudeness.

Rudeness is subjective isn’t it? It depends on how it lands with the person on the receiving end.

The whole point of politeness and good manners are to allow people to present themselves in an agreeable and respectful way to the widest group of people when they don’t know what their standards are and to avoid hurting people.

The example you have given of the one-legged person being called “runner”; if the man himself is (genuinely) not offended by it then there’s no problem with him being addressed as such among friends. Some people have a much higher threshold for this sort of behaviour than others.(Are you sure he’s not offended or does he just have to put up with it?)

But you would be an idiot to go up to a stranger in the street who had one leg and call them “runner”. There’s nothing to gain from this except to make you look insensitive and a bit stupid.

Politeness is partly cultural but it’s also just insurance: giving yourself the best chance to avoid causing offence.

@StolenChanel it would make more sense if you said where you were raised - Australia?

@Thepeopleversuswork
(Are you sure he’s not offended or does he just have to put up with it?)

I mean I can never say anything about anyone’s feelings with 100% certainty of course, but these sort of nicknames are so common in my community that I think he’d be more offended if you questioned it than anything! I saw a TikTok sketch once of a comedian from my country explaining the backstories to people’s nicknames and it was both hilarious and accurate.

I’d rather not be specific as it’s a small country and (paired with my other posts), very outing, but it’s a Caribbean island.

Notions or rudeness and politeness are culturally variable. But I'm assuming that your family wanted you to learn the British rules of etiquette because you live(d) in the UK? In that case, there could have been real negative consequences for you if you had failed to follow the rules, either intentionally or because you didn't know them.

Rudeness isn't a crime, and it's easy to say it doesn't matter, but there's often a significant penalty for being (perceived as) rude - just for example, losing out on job/career opportunities because bosses/gatekeepers don't fully trust you to behave "appropriately" with clients, prospects, colleagues, etc.. Of course, the more independent and self-sufficient you are (in my example, being rich and not having to work), the less it would matter.

@StolenChanel

Hmmm

In my experience when people are on the receiving end of comments like this they have just got used to being told they shouldn’t be offended as opposed to actually not being offended.

I was in a corner shop the other day and the proprietor called his young Asian assistant a “chink”. I objected and the bloke immediately bear-hugged the guy and said: “He knows I love him.” Well, maybe, but it’s still racism.

I see this happening a lot. People use “it’s only a joke,” or “they know I love them” to shut down pushback against offensive shit.

Obviously I don’t know but your one-legged friend may have just heard this all his life and not feel he has any choice.

I think if you visit or want to live in somewhere different to home then you make the effort with the culture. Would you go to Japan, do what you want and tell them their way is stupid? Or somewhere you could be arrested for not following customs?

Why saying please and thank you is so taxing is beyond me.

@OfficerChurlish that’s exactly it. I did all of my studying here (all the way from primary school up to university), so have had a lot more practise than DH has, which is one reason I can code switch easily. DH was also raised here through most of his childhood, but spent a lot more time in our home country than I ever did and he only did his secondary education here. But I honestly don’t know if it would have made any difference either way as he really does not care for “politeness” at all (whether it’s the cultural difference, the autism or a combination of the two, I don’t know).

It’s possible, but he’s also an older man and introduces himself as Runner to everyone he meets. I don’t actually even know his real name! It’s definitely a Caribbean thing, the nicknames.

I think there are some things that are rude in any culture, like ignoring someone who is asking a polite question.

It’s not so much that it’s taxing, but it just doesn’t roll of the tongue without having to really think about it. I should also point out that most of DH’s social circle are from the same community as us, as are a large chunk of his work colleagues, so in his day to day speech he doesn’t need to use British politeness as much as I do. It’s similar to using English as a second language in that sense, I suppose. He does sometimes remember when we’re in restaurants etc. (not always through), and to my trained ear it sounds very forced! His whole demeanour changes.

Autistic people are perfectly capable of learning social rules, even if they don’t come naturally to them. I taught my teenage autistic godson, together with his mum, some simple rules for reading other people’s social cues, like how to tell if you’re boring someone or monopolising the attention of a group etc. If your DH wants to not cause hurt and offence to many people in the culture in which he’s chosen to live, he needs to learn basic social politeness by its rules.

And yes, some cultures say please and thank you far less, or are less socially smiley. My BIL, who had been running a bar in the US, went to work in a former Eastern Block country in the 90s, and noted that waiters smiling automatically at their customers was an alien notion. You smiled to express happiness, not as part of the service. But you need to adapt within reason to where you live.

Manners are very important. If people come to my business for example and don't say please or thank you, then I'm annoyed and it puts up a barrier. When we visit foreign countries, we at least learn to say please and thank you in their language as a curtesy. Another example is that some cultures like to barter for goods and services, whereas I find it offensive if people try to barter with me. You have to respect the culture of where you are. A dark or sarcastic sense of humour is usually fine in the UK btw, we aren't as easily offended as the media likes to portray!

@Bullaun
If your DH wants to not cause hurt and offence to many people in the culture in which he’s chosen to live

I actually think this could be a part of it. The country we’re from has a long and brutal history with Britain, going from slavery, to colonialism to today’s neo-colonialism and things like the Windrush scandal, so for most people living in Britain from our country, it’s less of a place we’ve “chosen to live” and more somewhere we’ve had to live out of necessity (especially those who were brought here as children or born here to migrant parents). Now I’m thinking about it like that, much of it is probably a “fuck you” to “polite” British culture.

We have similar with the difference between my parents and in-laws. My dad was in armed forces (non officer grade) his conversation has always been peppered with slang and banter and nicknames.

DH's family are nothing like that, they always say exactly what they mean. They don't even shorten firstnames. I've switched between without much problem but it took me a while to notice.

Of course the danger is if it veers into discrimination or belittling people but it's often meant with affection or as a sign of "belonging" in a group.
My 20yo son was doing some casual work recently and he was instantly nicknamed "the 12 year old" in the team because he was so baby-faced compared to the rest of them. He didn't take it badly he was more proud they included him.

I see that. (Also from a country with a complex and brutal colonial past relation with Britain.) I suppose it comes down to where you draw a line between cultural protest and making friends, family and people you’re fond of uncomfortable.

I think it is even more nuanced than 'cultural' differences. You only have to see the disagreements on Mumsnet to know that even people from very similar cultural backgrounds disagree on what it means to be rude. Some people just like to be perpetually offended and seem to attract what they perceive to be rudeness like magnets. Then you have the 'I like to tell it as it is' brigade who equally have no self-perception.

Whichever, the important thing is having the understanding to adapt to different situations and people. And also for others to understand that some people can be a bit blunt but mean well and that others are just knobs who aren't worth your time.

@ForPearlViper I agree!

It’s very interesting this.

My ex husband comes from a very racially diverse country where a word (which I won’t use) which in English is highly offensive to Black people is used casually and affectionately.

It doesn’t have the same connotations in this culture and is used in the literal sense of the word (which is the word for Black in that language). I remember being astonished when I first visited this country to hear people use it to their own siblings, partners and close friends. I remember saying to him: “You realise that you can’t ever use that word in English?” and he was completely nonplussed.

It just doesn’t carry the colonial slur that it would in an Anglo Saxon country. I had to get used to the fact that in this culture it’s a normal form of address. I suspect over time greater awareness of racial differences and a need for more sensitivity in language will make this word unacceptable in this culture too, it’s a society which doesn’t have a well developed sense of the impact of it’s colonial roots on it’s modern culture.

@Thepeopleversuswork its fascinating, isn’t it! I find variations in language and culture so interesting. They are almost never simple differences; there’s always a story behind it.

Absolutely

@Thepeopleversuswork

Interesting thread.

A long while ago, my sister had a friend with a nickname used happily by himself and everyone in their friendship circle. The nickname was Bandit. I'll leave it for posters to work out why. Virtual gold star for the first correct answer.