AIBU to think AI chatbot “girlfriends”/porn are the lesser evil?

[OrangeCarrot]

At work recently, a group of my colleagues were talking about these AI chatbot “girlfriends” (like something called Janitor AI, apparently) that people use to have conversations with, including sexual ones. I had no idea this was a thing! At first, I was quite shocked to hear about it, but after giving it some thought, I’m starting to wonder if this is actually a lesser evil compared to real porn.

I mean, with AI, there’s no exploitation of real people, no one is being coerced or objectified, and no one’s body is being commodified. It seems like, in a way, this could be a more ethical option, especially when you think about all the issues with the porn industry. On the other hand, I can’t shake the feeling that there’s something weird or dystopian about it.

So, AIBU to think that these AI chatbots might actually be a “better” alternative to real porn? Or am I totally off-base here?

I think it would just lead to further dehumanisation of actual women. There's already evidence men will behave abusively to these 'virtual girlfriends' and if that gets normalised then it further encourages that attitude to actual human beings. https://futurism.com/chatbot-abuse

What men need to learn is that women do not owe them sex or relationships. And that that doesn't mean that 'women all want a 6 foot tall buff guy earning 6 figures' either, and the world is full or ordinary looking people with ordinary jobs and cars and bank balances who are happy together.

YABVU

AI chat bots/porn bots will give ever more unrealistic ideas of what women will tolerate

The report I linked to wasn't about porn/sadism or snuff, but the AI bot encouraged a mentally unstable man into thinking that killing the Queen was a good idea

Yeah that’s interesting. Basically people worry it will encourage/enable men to further their misogyny.

Having children in this day and age is so complex with so many things to navigate. I feel like you need a full degree to begin to have any idea how to address all this.

If you've ever talked to a child (or adult I suppose) who spends too much time with Alexa then you can see how this will go.

My sister actually has an ai boyfriend on her phone. I saw it at a family gathering when she went to forward me something but I didn't say anything.

My sister has never had a boyfriend and she is in her 30s. She's never been into dating at all and is pretty guarded around men in general.

I don't really mind if she's getting something out of this that she isn't comfortable getting from a real person.

There was a company that allowed people to have sexy chats with their AI friend/girlfriend but then overnight changed it so the AI girlfriends would no longer be up for it. Its sort of funny (the conversations reproduced where the man is trying to instigate sexy chat and "she" is just completely refusing to go there. Very much "not tonight I have a headache". But if you rely on a company to provide you with a replacement for human company/emotional support then its a huge amount of power. There is a real fear from some very shut in men about the "risks" of emotional intimacy with other womens/other people (just friendships) and they sort of encourage each other to believe they will be betrayed/scorned. All human interaction includes the risk of rejection and betrayal but the idea that young (mostly) men can avoid this by putting all their faith in large tech companies is crazy.
I wouldn't want my son doing this if he was every lonely/emotionally vulnerable. And there costs to society (and women's safety) of anything increasing the already considerable problem of male loneliness. (Personally I think a lot of male loneliness is because they are slightly less inclined to socialise than women as a rule and real world socialising is hard. Technology reduces the need to do this, so in the short term its a gain, but in the long term they suffer from not "having to" interact with the world. AI bots could make this much worse.

My sister actually has an ai boyfriend on her phone. I saw it at a family gathering when she went to forward me something but I didn't say anything

Actually my cousin has a so called relationship like this and has for the last thirty years. Hers is with a minor celebrity and he communicates with her through his TV and film work.

She's been sectioned three times and I don't think her fantasy relationship is in any way helping her.

That is completely different, and so far from this topic that is is irrelevant. I also have an aunt with dementia who thinks I'm her dead son (I'm a woman), perhaps I should consider her belief of this one and the same as my sister's ai boyfriend?

You're really stretching.

I think a lot of people will consider this an option going forward especially when it becomes more normalised. I mean, it will never be angry or abusive, it will never have its own emotional needs so it will always put the person first, it will never nag or complain or whinge or moan. It will never stop you doing anything or sulk when you get home. Not just from a sexual point of view but people are struggling more than ever to meet people they connect with enough to form long term relationships, perhaps a long term stable ai partner who is never jealous or upset, and a string of short term human flings is a better balance for some.

I think these chatbots will eventually turn into realistic physical "partner robots" that are increasingly close in terms of behaviour and appearance to real people, albeit ones that can be tuned to what the purchaser wants. To me it feels like an inevitable step towards making ourselves obsolete as a species. There's nothing inherently wrong in that, a species only exists if it engages in doing what it needs to do to survive. History shows that species after species goes extinct because it does not adapt to survive and there's no reason that humans won't either. Not every species is hunted to extinction or destroyed by a dramatic natural disaster, some just become irrelevant.

@Anotherparkingthread "I mean, it will never be angry or abusive, it will never have its own emotional needs so it will always put the person first, it will never nag or complain or whinge or moan. It will never stop you doing anything or sulk when you get home."

That's not necessarily a good thing though! As someone who went through an extremely shy phase as a child and was essentially forced to go and make friends, if connecting with people doesn't come as naturally its tempting not to do it if there is an alternative, but long term this makes the problem worse and means skills (like talking to others) aren't developed. Especially if the people in question are young. Its possible nowadays to drive everywhere, always take the escalators instead of the stairs etc. But it isn't healthy to do that and it means certain muscles aren't exercised that then means you can't do other things you might really want to. Likewise, learning to deal with other people and balance their emotional needs with yours is an important skill that people learn through friendships/relationships. I think something which gives the surface level "rewards" of a friendship/relationship while skipping over the bits that take more effort/are less enjoyable can look like improvement but it isn't really. And the people who are most likely to be drawn to it (the less socially confident or the less inclined naturally to think outside their own emotional needs) are also the ones who will lose the most from not improving their skills (for want of a better word).

But I do believe, part of what makes us human and helps us understand what it is to be human is our relationship with others. A tool which mimics that relationship but is essentially just reflecting ourselves back at us isn't great. Its also ironic, since the one thing people (especially men actually) say they don't want in a relationship is to be manipulated. But that's all an AI is doing essentially.

You could argue the opposite, and that having positive experiences in conversation with something (someone?) pleasant would set you more at ease in future incidents. This is a normalised concept in therapy it is positive exposure, reinforcing that interaction is good. If people are awful to the person enough that they turn back to ai it says more about the people. Also if somebody who is anxious in social settings was allowed to practice social and conversational skills with something, that was a non judgemental and unbias, it could also help them implement these in the real world. Their is actually am argument for ai therapy when it becomes advanced enough as people do open up more when not confronted with potential judgement on their own behaviours, something ai is incapable of. Their is also more trust because it can never breach confidentiality, or go home and tell it's partner about a client they saw today etc. responses can also be standardised so that the best level of care can be offered as well as better metrics and measurements of improvement, a person may take notes but a machine can pick up on even minute indications in the way a person talks or language used, once programmed, to guage how a person has changed between sessions or as a result of combinations of medications and therapy etc. This would also make therapy a good deal more affordable to people who may otherwise not have any access to such things.

That is completely different, and so far from this topic that is is irrelevant. I also have an aunt with dementia who thinks I'm her dead son (I'm a woman), perhaps I should consider her belief of this one and the same as my sister's ai boyfriend?

Yes, perhaps you should. It's not a reality. It's just a slightly more sophisticated tamagotchi.

I think that people who are anxious in social situations are not going to become more confident by having pretend conversations with artificial intelligence. Not unless they are unaware that they are communicating with a computer.

And if it did, would it not be better to have an artificial intelligence friend rather than an artificial intelligence romantic relationship?

That's actually a really good point! I hadn't thought about it's use in therapy, or as a sort of exposure therapy/practice though. I guess in that case it would be operating more like a therapist of friend substitute. I think in that context though anything that substitutes a sexual relationship looks more unhealthy, just because it's so against good practice in therapeutic relationships.

I hardly think it matters to be fair. People stay with some absolutely terrible partners because of fear of being lonely or any other ludicrous reason. I could be an ai, a bot account replying to you. And you're still compelled to answer me. At the end of the day it's an interaction and it's as fulfilling and compelling as any other poster replying to you.

I suspect actually that if mumsnet started to fill up with bots actual posters would lose interest. Even if the bots felt very "real" and we're indistinguishable from a human poster if people started to think it was mostly bots they were talking to, they wouldn't get the same reward from posting. Let's be honest part of the (probably unrealistic and self absorbed) reason for posting is in the hope of changing or affecting another humans thought in some way. There is a lovely quote by Camus about human communication I can't remember but basically I think people value talking to other people differently to talking to themselves precisely because it's about getting one's consciousness noticed by another.

Theres a long article in today’s NY Times about a teen boy who killed himself after getting addicted to & manipulated by an AI chatbot:

archive.ph/fqBgm

Therein lies the issue. Real life IS messy and requires real life practice to get it right.

Eyes on screens is the way apps and AI generate cash. An online AI partner is only ever going to tell you what you want to hear to keep you online. That's a potent drug.

While people spend more and more time with online AI partners, the social skills needed to navigate complex human relationships are lost.

Give me real life pain and the resilience to cope with it any day over an AI fantasy world.