To believe that some professions deserve higher pay than others, regardless of education?

[OneKindDreamer]

I think it’s time we recognise that some jobs require unique skills or are more essential than others, even if they don’t require a degree. Is it wrong to believe that certain professions should be paid more simply based on their impact?

So tube drivers should be paid £3million a day or they'll remain on strike?

People have proposed all sorts of different ways to decide who should get paid more, so I don't think you'd be wrong to have a go yourself.

My main concern is that even the lowest paid should be paid enough to be able to live a reasonable life, and the gap between richest and poorest shouldn't be too large.

As to the ordering within that, well, that's less important once you have those fundamentals established.

Yup

HCP's
Nursery workers
Bin men

The problem with raising NMW is it raises the cost of living (as we are currently finding out!). What the answer is I don't know but the wage gap is closing and middle tier staff are beginning to wonder what the point is.

We should have a living wage and it's outrageous that the government tops up low wages.

We've gone mad regarding degrees in this country. When I was at university only about 5% went and many professions could be started at a beginner level and you worked your way up. Now you need a degree to answer phones.

I think anyone who works with 'people'

Managing behaviours

I do agree, but think we have a hard time accurately judging 'impact' in this country. You would have thought, after COVID, we would have realised who really were the essential people. Aside from highly qualified medical staff etc, many key workers were minimum wage earners. Supermarket staff. Care workers. Those people.

One proposal they I've read about is that people whose jobs require more "effort" should be paid more in recognition of that effort, so that there will be a point to making the effort.

Logically, if you want to retain a differential between the lowest paid jobs, and jobs where people have to make more of an effort, and you also want the lowest paid jobs not to leave people dirt poor, then you have to pay some people relatively less than at present.

That's a much harder part of the conversation. No-one wants to volunteer to be paid less.

Based on their impact?
You need to say a bit more here. How is impact measured and by who?
A business that is making a huge profit from an individual or group of people are going to be happy to pay more for exceptional skills whatever the qualifications, but carers who make elderly people smile, who is going to pay for that 'impact'?

I think pay already reflects more than educatio. It reflects scarcity of people able to do it and the amount of money it generates.

Some jobs with anti social hours, or risks, or needing particular physical attribute, or that are just unpleasant are paid more than jobs with similar education levels which are pleasant in other ways.

But there does seem to be some very socially useful jobs that need a lot of soft skills that are underpaid as that's difficult to measure and they don't make money.

Exactly this.
But they do not only get paid quite low wages (at least many of them) they also have shitty zero hours contracts.
Of course professions should be paid according to the level of skill (academic or not), focus needed and danger involved, within reason.
No one can convince me that any CEO of any company needs to be paid 4 million pounds annually, plus a million or two bonus, though.
Or that any other idiot that decides to make a point of how needed they are should get paid any more than the guys who carry on working through bad times, just because they make more noise. Effort, commitment and ethics should be valued too. I have seen too many piss takers being promoted for sorting "issues" that they created in the very first place, while the steady hard working employee who is on top of their load, so no dramatics arise from their department, are thought of having an "easy" role, so less valued.

My DH hasn't got a degree so his company refused to promote him. His knowledge and skills are better than all the graduates he works with so everyone goes to him for help.

He decided to stop helping and told them to ask the person with a PhD who was paid so much more.

A month later the director promoter DH as they realised his skill set was far more valuable than a degree!

I believe impact can be measured in various ways, such as the societal benefits a role provides, the level of skill required, or even the demand for the job. While businesses may pay more for roles tied to profit, the value of roles like caregiving shouldn’t be overlooked. It’s important to find a balance where both exceptional skills and essential roles are fairly compensated.

Like which professions?

I suspect jobs with uncommon but useful skills but not necessarily a degree already pay well - I’m thinking things like offshore deep sea diving on oil rigs for example. And train drivers.

As for professions to be paid by impact - it’s extremely difficult to define impact in an objective way that everyone agrees on. You also need to consider that the headline “impact” roles like nurse, teacher, carer, farmer, bin man etc are dependent on a vast number of other jobs - the bricklayer who helped build the school building, the electronics whizz who designed the microchip in the defibrillator, the accountant that ensures NHS staff get paid, the chemist working on a new kind of fertiliser that increases farming yields, the mechanic that services the bin truck…

With few exceptions (celebrity influencers might be an example) I don’t think there actually are many jobs that pay well but have no value to society.

Interesting one.

I work for a Govt Dept and daily deal with some of the most vulnerable people in society. I have a Masters degree, yet only earn £29,500pa. Lower grades than me earn minimum wage, but most days they have to deal with abuse & threats. I have no real problems with the amount that I earn. But I live in the SW where most people work in hospitality & only work in the summer & then only get minimum wage.

If I had my time over I'd wouldn't have gone to uni & would've trained to be a plumber or something practical.

Don’t be daft.
A bin man does an important job but he shouldn’t be paid like a brain surgeon. It’s about mental load as well as usefulness.
The healthcare assistant who cleans up the wee or baths someone isn’t under as much mental load as the nurse who prepares and gives the medicine. The not as much as the doctor who diagnoses and makes decisions.
The checkout operator isn’t under as much mental load as the shop manager who does the rotas and deals with head office.
There is a reason for hierarchy.
We are all important but we are paid for the stress of our jobs not the skill or effort or qualifications a lot of the time.

How does this work with public sector roles?

Those are valid points! It’s true that defining impact can be subjective and complex, given the interconnectedness of various professions. Many roles contribute to the effectiveness of others, which complicates how we measure value. I do believe that while some high-paying jobs with unique skills are essential, we also need to recognise that roles like nursing and teaching are foundational to society’s wellbeing. They might not always come with high pay, but their impact is profound. It’s definitely a nuanced conversation.

And CEOs can go to prison for decisions they have no hand in.

Ok.

So when you are elderly and needing carers, how much more are you willing to pay for that care? How much more tax are you willing to pay so that the carer for your neighbour is well paid?

Everyone talks about valuing those sorts of roles more but are then very reluctant to put their money where their mouth is. It’s like childcare - everyone says they think people working in childcare should be well paid, everyone complains childcare is incredibly expensive as it is.

I agree that there is a hierarchy in professions based on the level of responsibility and mental load involved. You’re right that some roles come with a greater degree of stress and decision-making that warrants higher pay. However, I still believe that the value of essential jobs shouldn’t be overlooked, even if they don’t carry the same mental load.

Here's an idea.

Think of jobs and careers in terms of "Use to society as a whole"

What would you put at the top?
What would be at the bottom?

Then think which jobs and careers are paid the most and the least.

What would be at the top?
What would be at the bottom?

Do the lists look in any way similar?

Public sector roles often aim to serve the community rather than generate profit, which can complicate how we assess their value. While they may not always receive high compensation, their societal impact - such as improving public health, education, and safety - should be recognised. Finding a fair balance in compensation for public sector jobs can be challenging, especially when budgets are limited, but their contributions to society are invaluable.

⬆️this

Is really hard to unpick. I would say my current job is pretty easy and low stress (very different from previous roles I’ve done but pays more). However, there have been 2 others who previously did my job very badly. I really can’t work out how they got it so wrong but the dept was a mess when I took over and I’ve turned it around. I guess what I’m saying is, something I find easy would be really hard for someone else, so how do you measure effort? I constantly have to understand complex issues and think on the spot to make a plan and implement it. But that’s how my brain likes to work - quick fire problem solving.