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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Did the benefits of lockdown outweigh the harm to children’s education?

577 replies

PoisedKhakiUser · 11/10/2024 15:24

AIBU to ask whether the benefits of lockdown - saving lives and protecting health - outweighed the damage it did to children’s education and future life chances? I feel like kids lost out on so much during this time, and I wonder if the cost was too high.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Walkden · 12/10/2024 11:00

"Nor were essential retail workers who deal with hundreds of customers per day."

Yes it's not like the average secondary has over 1000 kids in the corridors every break and lunch.

I always felt after in supermarkets and shops because masking and social distancing were enforceable. Cashiers had screens put up for droplet shielding.

Schools mostly had tape on the floor to make staircases one way and at the front of the class.

Doctors and nurses working on COVID wards especially had it worse obviously even if they only saw 20 or 30 people per day.

MrsMurphyIWish · 12/10/2024 11:02

Cornercandy · 12/10/2024 10:53

Nor were essential retail workers who deal with hundreds of customers per day. Teachers - up to 150 pupils per day. Doctors and nurses - low-mid 2 figures.

My asthmatic friend who works for a supermarket wrote an e-mail to her GPs as she was not eligible for the vaccine earlier due to her age. GPs had the discretion of moving patients up groups if they were borderline. The practice moved her up to the one with life threatening medical issues.

I’m not saying school staff had it worse. This thread is about whether lockdowns were needed. I’m pointing out that even if schools had remained open, there still would have been disruption due to staff and student persistent absence. If the return to schooling had been handled better, I doubt we would have needed a second lockdown.

DoreenonTill8 · 12/10/2024 11:04

And those posters who forced their own children into solitary confinement in their bedroom because they were were scared of catching germs from them, are monstrous.
@DalRiata absolutely, the one that stuck with me was the one who made her 8 yo isolate in her room, food and drink was left outside her room and she wasn't allowed to open the door to collect it till the OP had safely retreated downstairs, and the 8 yo had a bathroom schedule, not allowed to go to the loo outside this, and had to bleach everything after use, and many posters applauded her for this!!

Snugglemonkey · 12/10/2024 11:05

I did not believe in locking down the way we did and still feel it was entirely wrong to do that to children.

Walkden · 12/10/2024 11:05

"There is a balance to be struck of course between the needs of all members of society, but did we get it right? I think not. There is no such thing as society, apparently, when it comes to spending money on supporting basic human needs"

A point made by many at the time when people said what about kids from broken or abusive homes? They had been neglected for years with mental health services a disgrace for young people well before the pandemic such that schools were providing many services that used to be done by specialists and SS.

They were suddenly thrust front and centre but it at times it felt more like point scoring than genuine concern.

MrTiddlesTheCat · 12/10/2024 11:08

RafaistheKingofClay · 11/10/2024 21:36

I don’t think this is strictly true. Or at least they weren’t open in the way that we might consider being open today.
There was a national move to distance learning for upper secondary, some local areas also moved lower secondary to distance learning.
In the remaining lower schools and primaries it was a bit of a free for all with decisions about when to move in and out of distance learning being left with the school and local public health officials. The only guidance being that moving to distance learning should be a last resort after other infection control measure were used. In practice this meant that while schools sometimes closed proactively to stop the spread of infections they usually closed reactively when they didn’t have enough teachers or absence was too high. Even if schools were open that doesn’t mean children were in as they couldn’t attend if they had any signs of illness however small or where living with somebody who had a Covid infection.

I could only imagine the threads on here in 2020 if the government had suggested that children couldn’t go to school if they had a headache or a runny nose.

And, as I said above there may be some issues with excess death rates in primary and lower secondary age children that don’t exist in countries where there were national lockdowns. So it wasn’t exactly risk free for the children.

My DD is a lower secondary teacher. Her school had a one week in, one week distance plan. So only 50% of kids were in at any given time. And as you say, the merest sniffle and you were off.

Fluufer · 12/10/2024 11:09

Didimum · 12/10/2024 10:59

I didn’t say it was for many jobs. I said office-based roles. 69% of UK businesses adopt a fully remote or hybrid model. That equates to 44% of all UK workers, compared to 14% in 2019.

There are buzzy articles when one firm or another are demanding workers back, but it’s not widespread – and in almost all cases it’s demanding workers back to an increased hybrid model as opposed to full remote or something exceptionally minimal such as 1-2 days a month.

80% of hybrid and fully remote workers report that the primary benefit is there work from life balance, and 91% (worldwide) claim it improves their lives. This will absolutely be a positive for a great many children.

That's the 2023 stats. It was down to about 40% remote/hybrid this June (according to ONS). It's reasonable to assume that decline will continue I think.

Didimum · 12/10/2024 11:17

Fluufer · 12/10/2024 11:09

That's the 2023 stats. It was down to about 40% remote/hybrid this June (according to ONS). It's reasonable to assume that decline will continue I think.

The 2023 only looked at full time workers. 2024 was all workers. In 2024, 81% of office workers are hybrid or fully remote.

xxSideshowAuntSallyxx · 12/10/2024 11:19

MrsMurphyIWish · 12/10/2024 09:22

I’m a teacher and Sept 2020-Dec 2020 was a nightmare in schools. We had no ventilation (apart from open a window), masks and hand gel. We had monitors in class to measure the CO2 and was told to turn them off as they kept beeping all the time as ventilation was so inadequate. We weren’t prioritised for vaccines. Myself, the classes I taught, were in and out of school constantly for isolation and contact of Covid positive staff and students. Even if schools had been open in Summer 2020 and Spring 2021, we would have had this mess anyway. Obviously some areas were hit harder. I’m in the Midlands and we never really came out of lockdown due to the tiers. Schools were hit hard here when we returned. I guess a better funded area could afford ventilation for their schools but we didn’t and hence, we just kept seeing staff and students ill.

The Tiers were absolutely ridiculously thought out.

I remember coming out of that firebreaker lockdown being put into tier 3 and being told we could have Christmas only to be told that very evening we were in tier 4 yet the town 15 minutes drive away wasn't. I went into town that night to do my Christmas shopping, along with most of the town, it was heaving. They gave everyone enough time to leave the areas being put into tier 4(you just have to remember the scenes at train stations in London), thus spreading it all over the country.

The whole of covid was not well thought through.

taxguru · 12/10/2024 11:34

Cornercandy · 12/10/2024 10:55

They go to the offices/whatever to do the training and when confident, then they go to hybrid. One job I looked at requires the first 5 weeks in the office to train to use the systems, the law associated with the work etc.

That doesn't work because the other staff doing the training aren't there five days per week! They're hybrid/wfh, so the youngsters get a succession of different people (those who happen to be in that day) training them, alongside "online" training by wfh existing staff.

My son is in exactly that position just finished his first year at one of the UK's biggest insurance firms. His "training" has been very haphazard. Sometimes when he's been in the office, there's been no one from his section/team, so he may have well have stayed at home.

When I was a trainee in the 80s, I was literally sat opposite my designated "trainer" and I was virtually fully functional and self contained in my role within the first year. When my trainer was off (holidays/sick etc), there was another guy on the next desk who trained/supervised me alongside his own "trainee". It was all very structured and training was really quick and efficient. I also gained a massive amount of knowledge/experience just by being in the office and listening to conversations (internally and on the phone), to guide telephone etiquette etc.

Beezknees · 12/10/2024 11:40

xxSideshowAuntSallyxx · 12/10/2024 11:19

The Tiers were absolutely ridiculously thought out.

I remember coming out of that firebreaker lockdown being put into tier 3 and being told we could have Christmas only to be told that very evening we were in tier 4 yet the town 15 minutes drive away wasn't. I went into town that night to do my Christmas shopping, along with most of the town, it was heaving. They gave everyone enough time to leave the areas being put into tier 4(you just have to remember the scenes at train stations in London), thus spreading it all over the country.

The whole of covid was not well thought through.

Tiers were probably one of the stupidest ideas imaginable. I live right on the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire border, I'm talking a 15 minute walk to get into the next county and they were both in different tiers. Everyone just went over the county border to be able to go to the pub.

Ozanj · 12/10/2024 11:41

taxguru · 12/10/2024 11:34

That doesn't work because the other staff doing the training aren't there five days per week! They're hybrid/wfh, so the youngsters get a succession of different people (those who happen to be in that day) training them, alongside "online" training by wfh existing staff.

My son is in exactly that position just finished his first year at one of the UK's biggest insurance firms. His "training" has been very haphazard. Sometimes when he's been in the office, there's been no one from his section/team, so he may have well have stayed at home.

When I was a trainee in the 80s, I was literally sat opposite my designated "trainer" and I was virtually fully functional and self contained in my role within the first year. When my trainer was off (holidays/sick etc), there was another guy on the next desk who trained/supervised me alongside his own "trainee". It was all very structured and training was really quick and efficient. I also gained a massive amount of knowledge/experience just by being in the office and listening to conversations (internally and on the phone), to guide telephone etiquette etc.

That ‘informal training’ needed to occur because insurance companies often didn’t have great trainee schemes or when grads with 1sts in unrelated subjects decided to become actuaries. That has now changed with the use of more technologies and grads expected to already be semi-experts in their field, and a lot of actuary work now being done via algorithms. DN says he gets to wfh from the start, they use technology to their advantage from the start. He actually said ‘face time’ in the office is only beneficial for training for the old timers who need him to explain how things work - the youngsters don’t need it for anything other than networking.

Whammyammy · 12/10/2024 11:51

Zero benefits from lockdown at all. So no.

TickingAlongNicely · 12/10/2024 12:03

Beezknees · 12/10/2024 11:40

Tiers were probably one of the stupidest ideas imaginable. I live right on the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire border, I'm talking a 15 minute walk to get into the next county and they were both in different tiers. Everyone just went over the county border to be able to go to the pub.

Not to mention the size of the tiers was so inconsistent. Lincolnshire had to be all in the same tier... but is absolutely massive. And Rutland was one area as a tier.

ShiftySquirrel · 12/10/2024 12:12

I feel the first one was reasonable given the limited information.

Mil died of COVID stuck in a care home where hospitals were told to discharge COVID positive patients to clear beds.
Not ideal, but on reflection options were hugely limited and beds were needed for others.

Obviously it went through the care home like wildfire. We weren't allowed in but sat outside her window with our primary aged DC, holding her hand for a week, as she slowly died.

They let my BIL in (against the rules of the time) purely because he doesn't have a wife or DC, so if he died it would have "less" impact.

That's where we were in May 2020. There was no idea how things were going or the long term impact of COVID or lockdowns - sometimes it seemed very random who died and who didn't.

I also worked in a school, with key worker children. The second they opened businesses up that's when children should have been back, toddler groups opened etc.

The impact in schools (and with my own DC) is that children generally speaking seem less mature, less sociable and less resilient and with much higher screen use (socialising through a screen became the norm).

The current reception year are less school ready. There's a smaller cohort too. They were born in lockdown.

My own theory for that is the huge part that baby and toddler groups play in early childhood (and nurseries too).

As a parent you quickly see what other children are doing, comparisons are made right from the start.
Oh my baby has rolled over, mine smiles, mine can walk, wave, point etc.

So when your own child isn't making the same progress as their peers you realise much sooner, and can address problems more quickly.
If baby groups and nurseries aren't running there aren't necessarily those early opportunities to address issues.

x2boys · 12/10/2024 12:18

Beezknees · 12/10/2024 11:40

Tiers were probably one of the stupidest ideas imaginable. I live right on the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire border, I'm talking a 15 minute walk to get into the next county and they were both in different tiers. Everyone just went over the county border to be able to go to the pub.

Yeah they were daft ,I live in Bolton ,we had to have extra ,extra restrictions at one point and were not supposed to travel to neighbouring towns ,but people might work in a town different from where they live.made no sense

DogInATent · 12/10/2024 12:23

Cornercandy · 12/10/2024 10:55

They go to the offices/whatever to do the training and when confident, then they go to hybrid. One job I looked at requires the first 5 weeks in the office to train to use the systems, the law associated with the work etc.

You're assuming that offices/whatever exist for all businesses.

Post-pandemic I now work with client businesses that don't have a single office and everyone works from home or an individual rented desk in a co-work space, and no more than a couple of people are based in the same city. I massively opens up hiring opportunities for recruiting experienced staff but complicates hiring at the start of their careers.

It's developing into a significant problem for software/digital apprenticeships and vocational qualifications - although, to be fair, these have always been out of synch with that industry.

Sometimeswinning · 12/10/2024 12:44

Beezknees · 12/10/2024 10:25

That's just a silly thing to say. Parents do not have the time or necessarily the knowledge to teach their children full time as well as work.

I bring up my DS properly, thanks. But during lockdown I still had to work full time. He was in year 7 at the time and I had to basically leave him to it whilst working. I am also a lone parent. Plus I do not have enough knowledge to teach him even if I had the time. I did not do great at school and don't have A levels or a university degree, which is why I sent him to school so a qualified teacher can do that. I have never underestimated the importance of school and teachers.

It’s not silly. It just doesn’t fit in with your narrative. Everything you’ve mention is an excuse. You most definitely had windows of time. You didn’t need to teach the curriculum.

A poster above pointed out why lockdown was needed for the sake of hospitals. They were overwhelmed with people. People who sit there crying about how difficult it was for their children need to look closer to home. Before all the replies I do not include SEN in that statement.

DoreenonTill8 · 12/10/2024 12:51

Sometimeswinning · 12/10/2024 12:44

It’s not silly. It just doesn’t fit in with your narrative. Everything you’ve mention is an excuse. You most definitely had windows of time. You didn’t need to teach the curriculum.

A poster above pointed out why lockdown was needed for the sake of hospitals. They were overwhelmed with people. People who sit there crying about how difficult it was for their children need to look closer to home. Before all the replies I do not include SEN in that statement.

Gosh you're quite dismissive aren't you? It was just 'people crying about their children'.... 🙄.
Is your narrative 'all that mattered in life was covid'?

OrdsallChord · 12/10/2024 13:08

Walkden · 12/10/2024 11:05

"There is a balance to be struck of course between the needs of all members of society, but did we get it right? I think not. There is no such thing as society, apparently, when it comes to spending money on supporting basic human needs"

A point made by many at the time when people said what about kids from broken or abusive homes? They had been neglected for years with mental health services a disgrace for young people well before the pandemic such that schools were providing many services that used to be done by specialists and SS.

They were suddenly thrust front and centre but it at times it felt more like point scoring than genuine concern.

I must've missed kids from broken and abusive homes being thrust front and centre during the pandemic!

Beezknees · 12/10/2024 13:12

Sometimeswinning · 12/10/2024 12:44

It’s not silly. It just doesn’t fit in with your narrative. Everything you’ve mention is an excuse. You most definitely had windows of time. You didn’t need to teach the curriculum.

A poster above pointed out why lockdown was needed for the sake of hospitals. They were overwhelmed with people. People who sit there crying about how difficult it was for their children need to look closer to home. Before all the replies I do not include SEN in that statement.

You're being ridiculous.

Walkden · 12/10/2024 13:26

"I must've missed kids from broken and abusive homes being thrust front and centre during the pandemic!"

You missed the point of the post too!

OrdsallChord · 12/10/2024 13:29

Walkden · 12/10/2024 13:26

"I must've missed kids from broken and abusive homes being thrust front and centre during the pandemic!"

You missed the point of the post too!

Quite possibly. Could you clarify?

Walkden · 12/10/2024 13:32

"Quite possibly. Could you clarify?"

I could.

But you'd learn more by thinking about it some more yourself!

OrdsallChord · 12/10/2024 13:34

Walkden · 12/10/2024 13:32

"Quite possibly. Could you clarify?"

I could.

But you'd learn more by thinking about it some more yourself!

OK then... don't, I guess?