Impossible to equalise in society Pvte Vs State AIbU?!

[MusicLife80]

I send my kids to an Independent school, why? Because they are girls and of colour. I wanted to try and work towards equalising in some way their ‘placing’ in society. I thought rightly or wrongly that I was buying them an advantage. And to some extent I am.

What I have found is total utter sense of entitlement amongst ‘rich’ kids really I don’t know made me think it’s impossible to equalise. They already come from money. My kids might have brains but brain power just isn’t enough. Your kids need to have an attitude where they are winners. for these successful families and people it’s all about individualism, just their own gain.

I don’t want my kids to be like that, it’s my aim
to keep them grounded. However they even with this extra benefit of a private education don’t really have a chance against this generational wealth and total winners attitude. These kids believe they are the best. They believe they are unbeatable.

No VAT on education is going to give that belief to the majority of kids in State schools. It’s just not. It comes with wealth and generational wealth. They don’t need brains.

When I was out this weekend at a theme park I saw kids from all backgrounds, some parents were shouting at their kids, swearing at them. And I thought we have no chance of equalising anything, the rich will always be rich. These kids being sworn at, shouted at will grow with low self esteem and self worth. And those that have always won will keep winning.

AIBU? There is no chance ever of levelling up.

I think all you can do is your best. The reality is that your girls need to put themselves first to some degree in life. It doesn’t mean they are heartless or spoilt. Of course some kids are - but you could consider the wider picture and some other elements; eg maybe some of the wealth in the circles you talk of does get donated to charity. Capitalism exists because there are people at the bottom, and some would argue that people who own businesses’ provide employment for those who would otherwise be unemployed or not able or willing to be self employed. It’s the system we live in. You sound level headed so I’m sure some of this will rub off on your girls. I also think that how someone behaves as a child is not necessarily how they will be as an adult! All you can do is teach your children to be resilient and have some humility. You are not unreasonable though to think that the UK is full of inequality. You could encourage them to do some voluntary work for example so they can witness a variety of people and children if you feel their circle is narrow at school. Like I said - all you can do is your best! Not everyone’s best is equal, or the same as your idea of success.

You are spot on and very brave for telling it as it is. I have privately educated children and I work with disadvantaged families so know both worlds very well.

Some parents choose private school for this very reason: they want their children to be "winners" and be surrounded by "winners". They will actively shun the "losers", and socially engineer their children's friendships away from "loser" families.

Some parents choose private school for the higher standard of education and try to rebalance at home whatever their children are on the receiving end of at school.

There are private schools with a majority of the former, private schools with a majority of the latter.

Schools are a distillation of society as a whole, from nursery right through to post-grad level education.

There will always be rich and poor in any society, and the amount of money people have does not necessarily reflect how nice they are as people.

Thank you for your kind comments. It is not in my heart for me to engineer for my kids to the extent of who they are friends with. I am trying to keep them grounded. Granted it’s capitalism, I am from a country with even more inequality than here, but there it is visible, the gap is so wide there is not closing it in reality. I agree we can only do so much.

@chisanunian you are right!! I have friends of all backgrounds (I myself come from an immigrant background) I though have found the richer people are, their sense of entitlement grows, they think they are above people.

I feel there is no chance for so many disadvantaged children and we can only do so much. My parents were not literate so I already know in comparison to them I have ‘stepped up’ but it is a hard won race. This winners attitude that these kids have, I mean they’ve won as soon as they’ve been conceived.

I am not sure if it about "shunning the losers," I have certainly gone out of my way NOT to promote friendships where I perceive the other child as being a bad influence, having parents who don't value good behaviour or hard work. I don't shun them, I simply chose to invite children for playdates who know to say "please" and "thank you", who don't race around the house screaming or tease our dogs.

As another ethnic minority parent, I couldn't agree with you more. My main reason for privately educating was different but I do hope the benefits of the small class sizes, individual attention and confidence will go some way towards equalising where their skin colour works against them in society.

My role as a doctor is predominantly with the most disadvantaged in society, mainly due to the specialty I work in. The same way as wealth is generational, the disadvantages for the lower socioeconomic groups in society spans across generations. I cry for the children of the adults I treat as they have such little hope of breaking the cycle purely due to their upbringing. The adults make poor choices because they haven't had the upbringing themselves or the emotional resilience to deal with day to day life.

We regularly do activities with our children where we give to those less fortunate than ourselves and this is not just giving a heap of money and doing our bit. We give our time too. I participate in a medical camp in a developing country abroad where we give medical care to remote communities who otherwise would not receive it - my children have started coming with me and helping in ways they can. I hope this together with the behaviour and attitudes we model in the house keep them grounded but only time will tell

The real wealth comes from the luck of having love and secure attachments as an infant and consistency through the rest of childhood. Then being encouraged to pursue your talents and apply yourself to what matters to you.

YANBU. Families with generational wealth are taught from birth (subconsciously if not outright) that they are better than others. They genuinely believe it. I remember questioning someone like this on it once and the look of genuine confusion on his face (about how it could possibly not be true) was a sight to behold! No surprises that he aimed to become a Tory MP! (didn't make it, thankfully!)

That hasn't been my experience at all.

I'm a single mum with a DS in a small academic independent school, on a scholarship. DS has been completely accepted, has had a good time in his first five years (7-11) and is now in the 6th form with a small cohort.

Perhaps it's your specific school. Our school is a healthy mix of forces, local farming families, local professionals and a few international. Co-ed with a small boarding facility. Different nationalities. Vaguely Christian. No-one really flaunts their wealth - if they have it - apart from a couple of the dads have 'show-off' cars.

I agree. It would be interesting to phase private schools out (over 20 or 25 years, not abruptly) and see where we could get to as a society.

This and the real happiness comes from having a strong sense of self and of your worth.

There is little opportunity @morechocolateneededtoday for those from disadvantaged backgrounds from upping a level. I grew up in an area, inner city of extreme poverty, my parents though valued education, they hadn’t had opportunities due to their education being disrupted when they moved to England. But also they were both married off as teens and just had to work in whatever was available: they certainly did some cycle breaking I hope to do the same.

Pvte education is becoming more elitist and I am not seeing a single policy from the Labour Party that will help to level up in anyway.

That group of kids in the theme park where their dad was swearing at them, they actually were probably better off than most, I know their dad was swearing but they were having a fun day out.

I think this has to be the answer, as there needs to be some rebalancing of society somehow. This isn’t a VAT thread but the policy is having the opposite affect.

I think you can definitely improve your life.

I was born in poverty.

I'm now not poor. My life is a lot better now.

My cousin was born in even worse poverty than me. She was born to a single mother, and i remember that they were in really grindng poverty when she was small.

I could afford to have toys, her mother couldn't afford to buy any toys for my cousin

My cousin grew up and worked her way up a company.

She is now a senior manager. She has bought a massive house.

Poverty doesn't last forever.

He is accepted because he is there. Part of the club.

It’s not flaunting. It’s the innate winning attitude they have, I’m sorry to say but that only exists with wealth, coming from wealth and generations of it.

It’s not poverty as such. It’s this attitude, this sense of self, this belief you can have it all, you have it all, it’s not even conscious, it’s their being. I hate to say it is in their blood. Yes you can improve your life but you cannot reach where these people are.

I agree with a PP that it means teaching your kids individualism, selfishness almost, or a belief they are the best.

I applaud your cousin, but it’s different. I have only seen it in these independent school. We went to a state school in an affluent area before and that sense of self was not there in the same way.

This with bells on @Feelinadequate23

I think it can tip either way. Some of the DCs have wealthy successful parents who have raised them to have confidence in themselves, to believe they too can be successful, and the schools support that.

But there are others who see their successful parents and feel completely inadequate in their shadow. Hence some of the problems we see in teens regardless of their background - eating disorders, addiction etc. Pressure can work in different ways.

Much of that comes down to loving, consistent parenting.

I completely agree. While we maybe disadvantaged due to our skin colour, we are actually far more fortunate than many born to parents with similar levels of poverty because of the attitude towards education in our culture. My parents came to the UK with very little but were pushed by their parents to work very hard. They pushed us in the same way which facilitated me entering a well paid career.

The Labour Party are only interested in levelling down. They use whatever means they can to get ahead and then pull the ladder away from those below. I have no faith in them where education is concerned - how can we when they are hellbent on pursuing a policy built from spite? And to add to that, they want to take away from pensioners when there is little money to be made in the grand scheme. Absolutely no policies to try address inequalities or reduce poverty.

The saddest thing of all is those who are lowest down economically have the most to lose.

As for VAT, I would have been less confident letting DS take up his scholarship, knowing the fees would be 20% higher. I've scraped through the last 5 years but it hasn't been easy even on half fees.

I think you are right that VAT just makes private education MORE exclusive, less accessible.

It’s not flaunting. It’s the innate winning attitude they have, I’m sorry to say but that only exists with wealth, coming from wealth and generations of it.

Op There’s no guarantee at all that someone born into wealth will hang onto it. It only takes one gambler, or someone who thinks they’re good at business when they’re not, eg Lord Hesketh, or an addict such as the late Lord Bristol, and hundreds of years of prudent financial management can go in one generation.
There’s a book called The Splendour and the Squalor by Marcus Scrivener which describes examples of this.

It is much easier to have this attitude when you have a bottomless bank account to support you should things not work in your favour.

This.

And re These kids being sworn at, shouted at will grow with low self esteem and self worth.

Although you're right OP about poverty damaging life chances (for adults as well as children), so does a dysfunctional and/or abusive childhood. And that happens in wealthy families too. Often more hidden in fact, precisely because of the perception that they "have it all".

There will always be some people better off financially than others and I agree with you there needs to be more support for those with the least.

But also there's a need for better support for anyone regardless of financial background who's in need of help. Because, deprivation and/or trauma that harms life opportunities isn't always financial.

Re private schools. I wonder if the one you've chosen isn't the right fit for you or your DC? My experience of independent schools is the same as Meadowfinch. I agree with her on this - Perhaps it's your specific school. Our school is a healthy mix of forces, local farming families, local professionals and a few international. Co-ed with a small boarding facility. Different nationalities. Vaguely Christian. No-one really flaunts their wealth - if they have it - apart from a couple of the dads have 'show-off' cars