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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Don’t councils understand that prevention is cheaper than fixing

136 replies

Cornercandy · 27/09/2024 09:20

Councils are struggling with money for the past few years. So why do they cut back things like cleaning drains which are clogged up with dead leaves, sediment and rubbish? When the cost of getting road fixed, planning diversions, hiring of temp traffic lights etc is more money?

Where I live there are two roads which are flooded and closed - never have been before. Yet drove past these roads a few days back and they were absolutely clogged up.

I know where I live there have been two Amber warnings for rain this week. If drains were cleared, the roads wouldn’t be flooded enough to close entirely.

OP posts:
MurdoMunro · 27/09/2024 14:33

Public consultations are the pits. We hate having to do them. So much unfunded work when we should be getting on with actual work. We know it changes nothing. Central government insists we do them, even on things they have already told us we have to do, we do not have control over that. Not our choice.

MikeRafone · 27/09/2024 14:40

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/how-have-english-councils-funding-and-spending-changed-2010-2024

have a read of this and perhaps it will make sense why, when councils have seen a decrease in 46% of revenues from central government and had to increase council tax year on year to make up the shortfall - but are capped at 5% increase each year - why services are poor

How have English councils’ funding and spending changed? 2010 to 2024 | Institute for Fiscal Studies

Increases in council funding over the last parliament have not reversed big cuts made during the 2010s, with spending on many services still down 40%.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/how-have-english-councils-funding-and-spending-changed-2010-2024

SlothOnARope · 27/09/2024 14:42

Budgets are carefully controlled

They aren't though, are they. They're engineered or manipulated, at best.

MagpiePi · 27/09/2024 14:50

unmemorableusername · 27/09/2024 13:48

Average councillor IQ is probably 85.

Why don’t you become a councillor and show them where they’ve been going wrong?
I’m sure with your towering intellect you could manage to sort it all out on a couple of hours a week.

CabraCadabra · 27/09/2024 14:57

No.they don't!

MagpiePi · 27/09/2024 14:58

SlothOnARope · 27/09/2024 14:22

Publishing the results of audits just means we are told what they want to tell us. Our local council holds public consultations on what seems like a monthly basis, then completely ignores what the public tells it, and does what it wants regardless. I can't be more specific on an anonymous forum sorry.

The results of the mismanagement of resources are plain to see all over the country, so there's no need to demand "evidence". 14 years of Tory-led central government is all anyone needs to know, surely.

As gor

Having been involved with local
consultations regarding road schemes I can assure you that most of the suggestions from members of the public are totally bonkers impractical.
Suggestions we had about improving an inner ring road for a large town included

  • Build a big flyover from one side of the town to the other
  • put the whole ring road on a bridge
  • build a tunnel from one side to the other
  • make the ring road one way clockwise
  • make the ring road one way anticlockwise
It gave us a laugh anyway!
SerendipityJane · 27/09/2024 14:58

Not sure how this thread can go for so long without a single mention of Birminghams spectacular (and well warned of in advance) bonfire of the fivers this past decade ?

MurdoMunro · 27/09/2024 15:01

I really wish Civics was taught in schools. People have so little understanding about the limits of local government reach. Like we can just move money between budgets, that we choose to do emergency patches instead of doing maintenance, how permissions work, things that we are absolutely not allowed to do even tho you’ve clearly told me ‘it’s just common sense’.

80% of the work is set by central government and the 20% is the stuff you want but the money for that is needed to prop up the central government demand which is always 30-40% below the budget required. And I’m not even including social care and education in that, their figures are spiralling down so fast I can’t keep up with it.

That every five years a new lot pop up who promised you that ‘I’ll fix it, I’m Mr Businessman. I’ll be the Councillor that shows those thick, lazy officers how it’s done!’ Then cut all your half way through projects, set you onto some other thing that is under resourced and cobbled together while you try and stay on top of your stat duties.

It’s different to the private sector, regulations all over the bloody shop. Democracy is imperfect, laborious, slow, infuriating (pick another option why dontcha).

Plus all the flexi-time = less time crap, that we prefer to WFH when often would rather be in even though our offices have black mould all up the blinds, that we are overpaid, we are lazy, we are thick, we have ‘gold plated pensions’, (that generation is lumbering out of the door, good luck to the old bastards live your retirement for me, send photos). That ‘I pay your wages’ when less than 20p pa of your council tax covers my whole department.

MurdoMunro · 27/09/2024 15:11

SerendipityJane · 27/09/2024 14:58

Not sure how this thread can go for so long without a single mention of Birminghams spectacular (and well warned of in advance) bonfire of the fivers this past decade ?

Big clusterfuck in Birmingham = all councils everywhere are staffed/run by idiots in all departments across the board. Right. What a dinger!

How do things get better? Shall we try recruiting experienced and effective officers and equipping them with the resources to do it. I wonder how we might go about that…mmm…don’t let them know we don’t actually have any discretionary spend, devalue pay and conditions and once we’ve got them in kick the thick lazy bastards about a bit. That’ll crack it.

Also lets set out our objectives, raise public expectation and then change the goal posts each time their’s a change in the minister’s seat.

Cornercandy · 27/09/2024 15:26

Then have the problem of living under a borough council that does certain things and county council that do the rest.

I know about 80% of the services are run by the relevant council. Then get things such as the tips are county council operated.

Then some areas used to be ran under the borough. Rang the BC about an issue "oh its under CC now". Wonder how much money was wasted in transferring the ownership from one council to another and probably had things missed too.

OP posts:
MurdoMunro · 27/09/2024 15:34

Oh lord yes, parish…district…county…unitary…mayoral authorities. Yeah, us officers can move seamlessly between all that because of course I’ve chosen to organise it that way. Yes Mrs Boggins from Middlethrop I can see that you are very angry about not being listened to when you put your comments on that consultation response. However a) we are the county council and your bins are collected by the District b) that consultation was about streetlights in Bigglestown and c) the government says we have to put up 20 streetlights but we haven’t the money to pay the leccy bill so they’re only going to be lit for 20 minutes a day, don’t be worrying about Bigglestown getting something flashy that you’re not.

SlothOnARope · 27/09/2024 15:39

MagpiePi · 27/09/2024 14:58

Having been involved with local
consultations regarding road schemes I can assure you that most of the suggestions from members of the public are totally bonkers impractical.
Suggestions we had about improving an inner ring road for a large town included

  • Build a big flyover from one side of the town to the other
  • put the whole ring road on a bridge
  • build a tunnel from one side to the other
  • make the ring road one way clockwise
  • make the ring road one way anticlockwise
It gave us a laugh anyway!

Yes, our council love to laugh at us, too. I'm glad we are such a source of mirth for you.

I'm talking about simple yes-no questions, like "shall we build this massive £20m piece of infrastructure knowing similar structures have caused expensive issues and failed to solve the problem in every other place that has one or shall we not", "will you use this cycle lane" and "do you want more 20 mph roads". Large public majorities said a resounding no in each case, but each project was pushed through regardless.

MurdoMunro · 27/09/2024 15:50

See above. Projects at this scale usually determined by central/devolved government, come with outline design already in place. Consultation a farce that central government require the local authority to do. Alternatives supplied by respondents not permissible (see budget control, discretionary spend, regulation). Half finished, unlinked infrastructure can usually be aligned with change of minister. Project type aligned to current minister’s special interest, ring roads will be funded by the next ‘I love ring roads me’ minister appointed, if that’s what you want you’ll need to bide your time (see Johnson, ref. bridges for example).

MurdoMunro · 27/09/2024 16:04

And sometimes we laugh. We do. I have a frequent flyer who conducts his own consultations when he thinks I’m wrong about something (yes me, personally) and includes things like ‘Mrs T at number 8 shut the door in my face using language unbecoming for a lady in a town such as this so that household has been excluded from benefitting from this report’ and ‘Mrs P at number 14 is very elderly and infirm finding it difficult to get to the door so I undertook the kindness of completing the questionnaire for her’. He’s good at graphs and pie charts tho, I’ll give him that, top Excel skillz.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 27/09/2024 16:08

Yes!! Yes they do know!! Unfortunately they have have bugger all money, a frankly ridiculous array of statutory duties they have to carry out and legislation to comply with

I would love there to be a reality Tv show where the ppl who think they could do it all sooooo much better are put in charge of a council for a year

Summerhillsquare · 27/09/2024 16:20

SlothOnARope · 27/09/2024 14:22

Publishing the results of audits just means we are told what they want to tell us. Our local council holds public consultations on what seems like a monthly basis, then completely ignores what the public tells it, and does what it wants regardless. I can't be more specific on an anonymous forum sorry.

The results of the mismanagement of resources are plain to see all over the country, so there's no need to demand "evidence". 14 years of Tory-led central government is all anyone needs to know, surely.

As gor

You're wrong, its enshrined in law - https://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/guidance-and-resources/external-audit/statutory-arrangements-audit

I get people are angry - rightly- about Tory misrule but circulating misinterpretations doesnt help. Check and balances need to be strengthned, weakening them was a speciality of the last govt.

Hadalifeonce · 27/09/2024 16:35

I was a school governor a few years ago, a building project was needed at one of the schools. I told the LA that I was more than happy to get quote from local builders. They said that we (the school) couldn't get our own quotes. The quote they were given was horrendously high, but they were going with it. On the sly I got a local builder to quote, his quote was about 2/3 of the LA one.
Essentially I believe the LA staff either don't have the skills to negotiate or they are not allowed to. Which, over several schools, must be very draining on their funds.

YYURYYUCICYYUR4ME · 27/09/2024 16:38

Perhaps it is what is happening in social housing. Board members and top managers being paid in the 100,000 to £250,000 (and sometimes beyond mark) and cutting any role where you actually 'do'! There is money and where the money is spent, there are budget cuts and spending on items that make no improvements but somehow tick a box or agenda. Not just an issue of less, but where money is being spent and how this spend is being checked.

HoppityBun · 27/09/2024 16:42

Councils are funded by government grant. That amount is decreasing every year. There is barely enough for maintenance. Most services are being cut and local authorities are going bust. Of course they understand that investment is needed. But people don’t like paying taxes.

SlothOnARope · 27/09/2024 16:46

Summerhillsquare · 27/09/2024 16:20

You're wrong, its enshrined in law - https://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/guidance-and-resources/external-audit/statutory-arrangements-audit

I get people are angry - rightly- about Tory misrule but circulating misinterpretations doesnt help. Check and balances need to be strengthned, weakening them was a speciality of the last govt.

Yes, thanks, I know they are required to audit.

I just don't think people should believe what they are told by any authority/auditor/government/council/police force. Why would you?

Boomer55 · 27/09/2024 16:48

Cornercandy · 27/09/2024 09:20

Councils are struggling with money for the past few years. So why do they cut back things like cleaning drains which are clogged up with dead leaves, sediment and rubbish? When the cost of getting road fixed, planning diversions, hiring of temp traffic lights etc is more money?

Where I live there are two roads which are flooded and closed - never have been before. Yet drove past these roads a few days back and they were absolutely clogged up.

I know where I live there have been two Amber warnings for rain this week. If drains were cleared, the roads wouldn’t be flooded enough to close entirely.

Councils are like governments. They do the “here and now” but don’t think about the future. 🤷‍♀️

IGotBigKidsAndICannotLie · 27/09/2024 17:31

TheGreatIndoors · 27/09/2024 10:40

People who work for the council are mostly of moderate intellect at best. Often spend most of their time on tea breaks or flexi leave and would never survive in the private sector given it takes them 28 days to respond to an email.

I may have spotted another possible explanation for why you apparently struggle to get timely responses.

Haruka · 27/09/2024 17:44

Same reason that damp patch in my house on the bottom of my wall every time it rains doesn't get fixed.

It costs money to assess the problem.

It costs money to fix the problem.

There is no money.

MagpiePi · 27/09/2024 17:53

Hadalifeonce · 27/09/2024 16:35

I was a school governor a few years ago, a building project was needed at one of the schools. I told the LA that I was more than happy to get quote from local builders. They said that we (the school) couldn't get our own quotes. The quote they were given was horrendously high, but they were going with it. On the sly I got a local builder to quote, his quote was about 2/3 of the LA one.
Essentially I believe the LA staff either don't have the skills to negotiate or they are not allowed to. Which, over several schools, must be very draining on their funds.

The LA probably has to use approved contractors who work to industry standards, use materials of the correct specification, pay and train their staff properly, abide by health and safety laws, have a track record of completing similar schemes and have the right levels of insurance if things go wrong.

MagpiePi · 27/09/2024 17:55

SlothOnARope · 27/09/2024 15:39

Yes, our council love to laugh at us, too. I'm glad we are such a source of mirth for you.

I'm talking about simple yes-no questions, like "shall we build this massive £20m piece of infrastructure knowing similar structures have caused expensive issues and failed to solve the problem in every other place that has one or shall we not", "will you use this cycle lane" and "do you want more 20 mph roads". Large public majorities said a resounding no in each case, but each project was pushed through regardless.

Well go and be a councillor then and just do what the public tell you if your current lot are so rubbish.