To feel really sad that

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So many women on here have been raised or gaslit into believing that they are worth so little. They seem to think that they have to do all the housework and childcare and accept no help from their so-called partners, often while paying halves for everything and never being treated. It’s 2024. How are women not getting a better deal in relationships than back in the 70s?

I’m quite new to MN and it’s shocking how many women don’t have the confidence that their position is reasonable even in quite extreme circumstances.

It’s interesting that you say this. I considered adding a paragraph about the men- who is bringing them up in these ways?? What are the mothers and fathers of sons doing?? But didn’t as I thought people would find it antagonistic. Maybe I should have, because I do wonder. As a teacher and a parent I have seen the disrespect for women and girls start very young in some boys (no, not all) and I can’t even put it down to poor male role models as some of their dads do seem to be decent partners and parents.

I have seen a couple of angry posts but I suppose the thread has been inspired by a young woman asking AIBU to expect my BF to get me a nice birthday present and to do some household chores rather than playing video games, and another considering cancelling the holiday with her BF because he wants to go and have a hand job in a massage parlour while she watches. The fact that these are even questions about who is being unreasonable boggle my mind, and I don’t think it’s blaming women to ask how they have got to the point of valuing themselves so little that they think they might be being unreasonable to question these behaviours.

I have seen a couple of angry posts but I suppose the thread has been inspired by a young woman asking AIBU to expect my BF to get me a nice birthday present and to do some household chores rather than playing video games, and another considering cancelling the holiday with her BF because he wants to go and have a hand job in a massage parlour while she watches. The fact that these are even questions about who is being unreasonable boggle my mind, and I don’t think it’s blaming women to ask how they have got to the point of valuing themselves so little that they think they might be being unreasonable to question these behaviours.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that either.

If a man behaves badly towards you dump him.

Don't find a way to understand or accept or make peace with it.

Just get out.

I've read similar threads to yours before, OP, and it's often been explained away as women want babies and so tolerate shitty behaviour to get the baby.

Fine. I mean, I don't understand that, but if that's your choice, at least own it.

That's just weaponised incompetence.

"No dear, do it again"
Or alternatively once they start being a bit shit, then get rid.

Remember you can't say all men are bad because of what you see on mumsnet, I don't post about my dh here because I don't need to.

How they have got to the point of valuing themselves so little that they think they might be being unreasonable to question these behaviours.

Upbringing. Every time.

these women are setting up their sons to behave poorly
and their daughters to accept it

I didn’t grow up in this environment
i didn’t marry (and divorce!) a man who grew up in this environment
my children aren’t growing up in this environment

I don't disagree with this but...

It feeds into part of the problem. Men are just supposed to go against their upbringing and know that expecting a woman to do everything is wrong. But we can firmly place the blame for women accepting it on their upbringing. Men are expected to take responsibility and women are not.

It's either not our fault (men and women) or its all of our responsibility to reflect, set our expectations and only accept what we want to in a relationship.

If you don't want to be married a man who behaves like a dick, dump him while he's still only your boyfriend.

What I find mind boggling in my real life circle is that there is real resistance from both women and men especially any work places for those real traditional gender roles to change. They don't want equality they feel threatened by it/inconvenienced by it.

My dh always aims to parent equally and be a equal partner but the way he is treated at work by both men women and even at the school gates is really strange. Work obviously want him to just be available 247 and live like he hasn't got a family which most of the other men do so he is the odd one out.

I can imagine the other men obviously don't want life to change if they can get away with just the bare minimum but I wasn't prepared for the women to also see it as a negative. The internalised misogyny is waayy more prevalent than I realised.

My dh gets told he isn't masculine enough he needs to "set me straight" I should have the dinner on the table for him when he gets in. Why should he take the kids to school or change his hours to be flexible so he can do pick up. The kids are the wife's job. There is a real sense of I didn't get any help why should your wife from the women and a jealousy from the men that in their eyes he is working "part time" (full time hours) I assume they think he comes home to play golf or playstation and just using the I've got to pick my children up from school as an excuse 🤷🏼‍♀️

If more men don't ask and show work how jobs can be flexible but still get the job done then it is less acceptable/common and companies won't entertain the idea if they don't have to.

He isn't travelling back to the 1950s everyday to work either this is a big forward thinking company with lots of employees from all different backgrounds and situations.

If asked I think lots of people say they want equality but actually they don't. Or they want other things more.

If I was young and dating now from what I see around me I'm not sure I'd be interested at all in having children or being with a man. It seems very incelly out there.

There was a time in the early years my dh did take advice from those cavemen he worked with and I said I'd be happy to divorce then if that's the life he wants to live. He says himself he was a sheep back then and is far happier now. So unfortunately it does seem its up to women to uphold boundaries and expectations as most men are raised with that entitlement and why would they want to change what "works" for them.

I find the whole thing very sad and frustrating.

No, I meant for the woman. If you’re brought up made to feel of low value, being treated like that is what you’re used to. It’s your normal.

That there is still so much abuse is horrifying. I had Women's Aid involvement when my marriage ended, and during one of the group sessions, one of the counsellors said that what is really needed, is for them (WA) and other DA organisations to be able to go to schools and teach children how to have healthy relationships, what is (and isn't) acceptable and how to build and maintain boundaries.

It's about respect and equality isn't it? The trouble is that we live in a patriarchal society and it's not really in their (men) favour to bring balance. It is exhausting having to fight for our rights all the time, whilst they are being simultaneously eroded and some don't even see it is happening.

I find it really pathetic when women won't take responsibility for themselves. It's all very woe is me.

We live in a time when you can do exactly what you want. You can build your own life.

Most of these women don't want to be helped.

Not ALL women.. have you considered that some women are actually happy to do the household chores? raise the kids? etc. etc.

I do everything in the house with the exception of the washing and the hoovering, thats my choice, i am OCD and no matter how much my DH wants to help, he will never be able to do it as well as i can! I am not ill, incapable, have MH issues, i simply live with an annoying condition and am happy to do these things.

I am not being gaslighted, or controlled by my DH

We live in a time when you can do exactly what you want. You can build your own life.

Sure you can, but don’t delude yourself that we dont still live in a world where many men, even the ‘nicest, kindest’ men don’t see women as lesser, don’t see our primary roles to be carers to them/the children/the home. And yes we can choose to work, but for less pay and still the carer expectations.

Most of these women don't want to be helped

Men are not helping women, they should be doing their own equal bit without it seeming like they’re doing it for a woman’s expectations.

But I’m not talking about you. I’m talking about the women who don’t know what reasonable expectations are. Some people do want and are happy to do xyz jobs, that’s fine. Presumably the arrangement feels reasonable. It’s all the posts I see asking AIBU because their setup feels wrong but it’s so normal to them or the OH is telling them they are unreasonable to object, and their whole sense of self is undermined.

I worry more that those posts are a sign that women simply don’t know, at a core level, that they can “build their own life”. That at a fundamental level our society is teaching both boys and girls that girls have to accept everything, be kind, put their own needs lower than everyone else’s. That they are in the wrong if they don’t. And that men can let things go because if it’s important, someone else will pick up after you- so they don’t have to subsume their needs to their kids’ needs, for example.

Yes, it’s not every man, every woman, every relationship (thank goodness). I know that. But based on a week or so reading and posting here, it’s pretty widespread.

That at a fundamental level our society is teaching both boys and girls that girls have to accept everything, be kind, put their own needs lower than everyone else’s. That they are in the wrong if they don’t.

nonsense
pure nonsense

Yes.

I understood that.

What I'm saying is that, for.men who were brought up not to respect wormen, that is also their normal.

But, on MN, they are expected to just realise that and change their ways. Whereas wen are notnexpected to expect more.

ah i see..

Women needs to take responsibility for their lives as well. A man is not a plan and shouldn't be.

Yes. Women demonstrate on the boards here time and time again that they make bad choices, and the response is always 'don't blame them, blame the men who don't do their bit'.

We can blame others all we want but we cannot control what others do. We can only control what we do.

And the first thing we can do it stop having children with useless men and stop pretending that men are perfect and only become useless after children are born, that is bollocks, you just chose to be blind

This. In a perfect world men would do their share, people would be kind to each other and crime would cease to exist.

But this isn’t a perfect world. All we can do is control our actions. Cut off toxic people, lock the doors at night, and don’t entertain men’s bullshit.

Who said you were? If you’re not, gold star. OP (and others) are taking about women who are, and who complain about it. Everything is not about you.

A good friend of mine who i thought was quite sane and evolved suggested ot me the other day that the way to get my husband to agree to something was to make him think that it was his idea. I am SO done with this level of bullshit honestly.

well that was a lovely reply wasn't it... thank you