To think GCSEs and A levels are crazy

[Chimichurrie]

I think there is far too much pressure on the kids in secondary school with GCSES and A levels. DH and I grew up in different countries and didn’t have to go through all this. We went to have successful careers.

We feel we enjoyed our childhood and teenager years without this constant pressure that exists in the UK about exams and success. Maybe is the same in other countries.

Our kids used to be very creative but once they started secondary school that just got to be put behind; school seems to consume their life. I have always worried whether they are having a nice childhood.

Do you think there is something wrong with the curriculum? Should our kids have s bit more opportunity to do other things to be more rounded?

I ageee with you @Chimichurrie.
I went through it and now my dc are. At least in my day most subjects had a substantial chunk of coursework which counted towards your final mark.

The 2 best things DS did at A-level were his EPQ, where he did lots of research and actually read around a subject he was interested in, learned how to write in an academic style, had to time manage and organise himself etc and his NEA where again he could pick something he was interested in and run with it. Maths and Physics on the other hand were dry as fuck.

I agree that functional skills combined with vocational skills should be available to kids as an option from yr 9. I also agree that the constant testing is far, far too much.

@LunaNorth I am intrigued as to what non fiction piece this is, would you mind sharing?

There was a clear filter when I took my first set of exams as I took O levels and only the top 20% of children took these. My English teacher on reflection was an awful person really he said CSE stood for child simple exams.

@x2boys I agree there is more than one path to success and happiness. One of DS closest friends is in the army, he got terrible exam results and did not get a good grade in anything. He is thriving now. His Mum sent me a picture of him out hiking in Germany when on leave as stationed there. As my DS said his mate is very practical and could probably build you a house if he put his mind to it. Issue is you are on MN and there are a lot of sharp elbows regarding education. Having had a career in higher education and having worked with some bona fide genius types I can assure you that people with a less narrow world view do value people across all types of work. As one of the cleverest people I ever met said to me when I was a young junior member of staff, ‘who do you think the most important people on campus are?’Before I got a chance to really contemplate it he replied ‘the cleaners, give it a day without them and this place would grind to a halt’. He was a top Professor a super chair as they were called and unfortunatley the UK lost that great brain as he went to work overseas.

So many things have changed in education since the 80s & 90s. Successive governments have increased targets and pressure and made the system far more high stakes than it was when we were at school.

It got markedly worse in 2014 when Gove (ugh) did a big restructure of the curriculum. In an ideological move he did what he thought would raise standards and that was to return the school system to one resembling the 19th century rather than realise it doesn’t suit our 21st century needs or our young people. He moved objectives’down’ a year group or two. Algebra for 10 year olds. Fronted adverbials for 7 year olds. Did away with topic based learning and brought in dry boring ‘traditional’ topics. Things that have no appeal to today’s kids. He made the exams higher stakes than ever. Made the whole thing more academic without realising this only suits a small percentage of people.

Not only did he introduce more scrutiny and control of the pupils he did the same with teachers in ever greater detail. The professional autonomy of teachers was massively reduced. Add into this punitive inspections in the form of Ofsted and it’s been a disaster for teachers leaving and kids mental health.

Scotland is even worse in some ways. There are three years of state exams in a row - National 5s, Highers, then Advanced Highers.

Formerly, many Scottish pupils, however academically able, would go to university straight after Highers and not do a school 6th year, but that is increasingly uncommon. Very competitive courses like law and medicine really require Advanced Highers ( ranked for English university entrance at a point above English A levels). This is increasingly relevant to Scottish kids as they are having to look to English universities since there is a numerical cap on Scottish students attending Scottish universities since the unis won’t allow these students to pay fees and the Scottish government fund limited places - often restricted to deprived central belt postcode areas for competitive courses.

To cut a long story short, it’s very hard work here for these kids. They all try hard to get best grades and work experience to try and get a place to study in further education.

I dont think it’s the exams that are the issue. The constant distractions because of mobiles and social media and the constant availability of distraction has made it hard for them to concentrate hard on one task. There needs to be a plan to tackle this plus a focus on mental health and building resilience.

I'm an exams invigilator (in a very desirable 'leafy comprehensive', but still a wide range of student ability/engagement) and I agree with whoever has posted that functional/vocational skills should be an option.

Every year I watch our lower ability students struggling with such a range of academic subjects, clearly so disengaged with the whole process when actually, something vocational could suit them so much better. Something at which they could truly achieve and excel, rather than feeling useless. Something which would engage/motivate/inspire them, not to mention give them confidence and self-esteem.

That said, I don't necessarily agree that the exam system is so stifling that no student can cope with anything else other than school work from Y10. It is obviously very child dependent as to what they want to and can do - but I know so many teens from Y10 and up who combine academic achievement (at varying levels - from struggling/average to high achievers) with lots of different hobbies, interests and a social life.

We had exams growing up and dc find exams an ok way to do it. It probably depends on each child but I prefer it

No problem if some would like vocational to be uplifted in some way for dc it suits

Who is putting pressure on them?

My DC were in school until Y5 which was when COVID hit. We realised how much happier they were being home educated and it gave us the space to explore subjects they were interested in.

We de-registered and have home educated ever since - they’re about to turn 15.

However, both DC are autistic.

DS was in special school and never would have sat any exams.

DD was in mainstream but with support, but was already failing as she has an additional language disorder that means she can’t process speech quickly enough to keep up with classroom discussions or oral teaching. She performed really poorly in class tests and probably wouldn’t have coped with secondary. The Ed Psych agreed that mainstream wouldn’t work for her because there was nothing they could put in place to get round her language processing difficulties- but at the same time she didn’t qualify for special school. Visual aids/PECS work well in primary but as learning gets more sophisticated it isn’t enough.

I was also a school governor for 5+ years - teachers are really under pressure to deliver results in the areas that OFSTED deem important. There’s no room for individuality. Teachers have to deliver a very strict curriculum and pupils thrive if they fit into a very narrow box.

Throughout the school year teachers have to monitor the progress each child is making in key areas which is incredibly labour-intensive, even with the assistance of programs. Every child has to be constantly monitored to see if they’re “meeting expectations” as a minimum. It’s all about data, data, data - and you can only get this information from testing children and assessing them.

Of course it’s helpful for teachers to know how a child is performing but I can’t even begin to emphasise the amount of time and effort that goes into collecting, updating, and analysing data - it’s all about statistics rather than true quality of teaching.

As others have said, if your child is gifted or has SEN, or if they need a different style of teaching, they’re not going to fulfil their potential. Many of the SEN pupils will fail and damage their mental health in the process because they’ll know they’re not “good enough”. We don’t support or promote blue collar jobs and very little is done to support children who want to follow this type of career path.

The current system desperately needs a radical overhaul as not many DC truly achieve their full potential, many fail who could succeed, and the pressure on teachers is unsustainable.

No point. They need a different pathway.

No enough time to persue other hobbies or get passionate about a topic, research it, learn about something for the passionate of it.

I don't understand this at all. I've just ushered my youngest off to university and all 3 DC had time for hobbies and other interests and they all went to "pushy" private schools. DD took dance exams during her A levels.

@benefitstaxcredithelp - you are spot on about Gove 👍

@x2boys

I don't know?
It's not like we're a different species over there?
And all the neighbouring countries are similar in this respect - higher academic standards and higher level of maths and science in the school curriculum.
We're all human, I don't know why the British system results in so many people with the difficulties you mentioned above.

@SpidersAreShitheads - very true, especially your last paragraph.

I totally agree with this. I've long thought that there should be a vocational pathway with subjects like "useful maths" (eg budgeting etc rather than calculus although some standard maths topics are obviously used on a day to day basis. Relate it to real life though.)

How does a GCSE in History help someone who'd be an excellent plumber?

Absolutely. If you like History and want to do it as a potential plumber, fine, but the content is far too much for many students.

All very true.

My son is in Yr6 and has noticed he’s doing different papers than his peers. It breaks my heart. Even with an EHCP he’s still around two years behind where he should be.

Germany has two pathways but speaking to some there some feel it's early or difficult to cross over

Maybe a bit later on for here

He is where he is, he'll find a way forward with the right support.

So every other country doesn't have people that are non academic ?
I find that hard to beleive .

I completely agree with you. My DD did hers recently and it would’ve been better for her if she could’ve dropped some subjects to focus more on others (maths and English). She had absolutely no interest in science.

I was one of the first cohort to do GCSEs and we had coursework for English, English literature and business studies, which was much better.

I hate all the focus on academic achievement - yes it’s good for some but for those less abled it’s hard. And completely demoralising.

I find this interesting because the PISA scores do have some European countries higher than England, but most of them not, we tend to be about 7th.

The dfe has said our standard pass at a 4 is a bit low to compete with our biggest rivals. It would need to be a 5 but they were looking at places like Singapore and Canada not just europe . So it doesn't look like the gcse is hugely out of kilter with international averages.

I went to school in the 80s when there were no Sat's or Ofsted inspections. The standards were awful. I learnt no grammar and got a big shock in year 10 when started gcse maths. Is was so much harder than our work up till that point.

For gcses there was tonnes of coursework which was stressful in its own way, especially if you were disorganised or didn't have support at home.

The grass isn't always greener.

Me too i did my GCSE,s in 1990 ,and we were told the whole point of them was so the course work reflected how you worked throughout the two years not just relying on how you performed on the day of the exam.

I know the grammar system has lots of critics, but in its purest form, when it was first introduced and the 'other' stream was properly supported and financed, it worked well.
Now, with the few remaining grammars resulting in such ridiculous tutoring etc, it no longer serves the purpose.
But I do feel that this sort of system needs re-examining. Maybe with a split later in the secondary years, rather than at 11, or scope to switch between the two later on.