AIBU to feel saddened by the way this has worked out?

[Kitnip]

Long story: sorry. Back in the late 1980s, when I was rookie teacher, I was mentored at work by an older woman, Liz, who became a great friend and a kind of second mother to me. We kept in close touch over the years and she supported me through my mum's death and various other life events. In 2014 (when she was in her early 70s) her husband died and she and her newly-divorced daughter (whom I'd met several times but never really got to know) bought a home together 350 miles away from me. Liz and I spoke every week, had holidays together and visited a couple of times a year.

In lockdown in early 2021 it became clear she was very unwell and Emily (her daughter) was struggling to cope, so I went to help. I was there for 11 weeks, sitting up at nights, cooking and cleaning and doing whatever needed doing so that Emily could continue to work from home and spend as much quality time as possible with her mum. There was very little medical or nursing support available and we were thrown together to give Liz the best final weeks we could. After she died I stayed on for a while to support Emily, who seemed close to a breakdown. For the next year Emily and I spoke at least once a day: she would call me to cry and my role was to listen. I think she came close to a breakdown and I know her employer offered to pay for therapy. I tried to offer what comfort I could and went to stay with her every couple of months to help with the admin and the gardening and all the things she didn't seem able to cope with on her own. Emily had always had a very small social circle and didn't seem to have any close friends, so it felt as if rather a lot was resting on me.

After that first year I started slowly reducing the frequency of calls and by the end of last year we were down to a couple of calls a week and a visit every three months. We had this routine for around 18 months until April this year when she didn't answer a couple of calls and didn't call me back. After a few days I left her a message hoping all was well and saying I hoped to hear from her. She didn't respond. I didn't want to badger her so left it a fortnight and tried again and we had a friendly chat. I guess I'd been hoping there were new friends or a new man around, but no. I was supposed to visit in May but she asked if we could cancel because she'd been promoted and needed to do a training course. I agreed and we talked about going away somewhere in July for a long weekend. From May I called her once every ten days or so. Sometimes she responded, sometimes she didn't. In June after a couple of calls where she didn't pick up I left a message saying it would be good to hear from her when she had some spare time. I heard nothing, and because of a number of complications in my own life, I put off calling her. July and then August slid past and she didn't contact me.

It was her birthday last weekend. I tried calling her a fortnight in advance to suggest I come down and take her out for dinner. No response so I messaged her with my suggestion. No response. I began to feel a little concerned so contacted the one other person I know who's in touch with her. They said that nothing had changed: Emily was still living reclusively and her life was centred around her work. No new boyfriend or hobbies or anyone else.

I really wasn't sure what to make of things, so I sent a card and a gift and on her birthday she phoned to thank me for them. I said that we hadn't met in May or July so did she fancy a weekend away somewhere in October and she was noncommittal, so I'm taking that as a no.

I know I should feel pleased that the worst is over and she's adjusted to life on her own and no longer needs me. And in a way I am. I think back to Liz and all the support she offered me over the years, and it comforts me to feel I was able to offer her daughter what she offered to me. I miss Liz badly but it hasn't felt appropriate for me to talk to Emily about my loss, so perhaps it's that that's making me feel a bit shit about being let go like this. I suppose that if Emily and I are now down to Christmas and birthday cards it feels like my connection to Liz is severed.

Has anyone else been through anything similar? AIBU to feel very sad about it all?

But aren't you also projecting your feelings onto Emily?

If she wanted to maintain a friendship with you, she would do so - she clearly doesn't, so you need to do the right thing and respect her boundaries, not demand answers from her to satisfy your own feelings.

You really need to separate your friendship with Liz from what's happening with Emily. They're two separate people who you've had two separate relationships with. Emily not wanting to continue a friendship doesn't change what you had with Liz.

So when she phoned after I'd sent her a birthday card and gift (because I'm trying to be kind and keep the door ajar) and she said, apparently honestly, that she was feeling awful for not calling me for months and she'd missed talking to me and we should meet up — and then said we'd have to see when I said I had a free few days in October if that was any good for her... So that was just the sort of thing reclusive types say, is it? They say 'Oh, it's so good to speak to you and we must meet up' when what they actually mean is 'please go away and don't contact me again.'

I feel as if I'm tangled in a game at the moment.

Honestly it just looks to me like real life is carrying on.

I have had friends I was very, very close to once who I am not as close to now because life has moved on, they are still friends, still lovely, we just don’t talk as much or see one another much.

I think if I sent them a message demanding to know what they wanted they’d think I’d lost the plot.

I doubt she meant ‘please go away and don’t contact me again’. It’s just the slow, natural phasing out that happens with time and with shifting of relationships.

But aren't you also projecting your feelings onto Emily?

No, I'm trying to listen to what she says and take my cues from her. But see above, the messages are mixed.

Do you actually get anything for yourself out of this friendship? Does Emily support you, make you laugh, is she someone you have fun with?

OP - once Liz passed, there was little to bond you to Emily anymore. I suspect you want to maintain a bond with Emily because it keeps you connected to Liz somehow, however Emily does not want that. Her actions have showed you as much. There could be many reasons (good or not) that she doesn’t want to maintain a close relationship with you but bottom line is she doesn’t owe you an explanation. Please respect the boundaries she is trying to put in place - while you lost a friend she lost a mum. Be happy that you did right by Liz, stay open to communication from Emily, but don’t push or force any more than she is comfortable with. It also sounds like perhaps you haven’t processed Liz’s death properly - use this time to work on that rather than focusing on Emily. I’m sorry for your loss, Liz sounded amazing.

If it hadn’t been for liz, would you choose to spend time with Emily?

I don’t think the responses are mixed, it sounds to me like she’s replied politely but not especially enthusiastically or with any committal.

Friendships do wane. I had a group of friends at school and university I was so close to. We’re still friends but nothing like it was. Then my NCT group were very close for the first three years but I can feel that waning a bit now. It doesn’t mean they aren’t friends, it’s just that people do come in and out of your life like characters on a stage and there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think they're mixed at all, I think you're just taking her comments far too literally - it sounds like she was just being polite because you'd made the effort to send her a gift, that's all.

It's really quite normal to say "oh, we must meet up soon" when in reality, you have no intention of doing so. It's just one of those social niceties like "oh, we must get together with the kids soon" or "do say hi to your parents for me" etc.

You only have a friendship with Emily because of the awful circumstances Liz found herself in - but in all honesty, I suspect Emily has no real interest in maintaining a relationship with her late mums' friend in the long-term.

It's clear you were really close to Liz and had a lovely friendship, but you can't expect Emily to maintain contact with you or explain her feelings to you because of it.

Leave her be.

She's clearly trying to reduce the intensity of the relationship (for whatever reason) so just let her go now.

Send a card at Christmas.

Wow, you sound like the best kind of friend any woman could hope for
But you need to take a big step back now. Liz was a big part of your past, but her daughter isn't going to be a big part of your future. She's not her mum.
I'm sorry xx

Hi Op ,
I am sorry that you are going through a difficult time just now . You and Liz appear to have had a lovely and deep friendship and you were both there for each other and supported each other . I think you really went above and beyond during lockdown when you stepped in and cared for both Liz & her daughter .
You have clearly shown that you are someone who is there when times are tough and isn't fickle and flakey .

I am so sorry for the loss of Liz . As others have said I don't think you have completely dealt with your grief for her. Whilst she wasn't your mother you clearly had a very strong and mutual friendship and as you have said you did consider her as a second mother .

I can also appreciate that you will feel guilty as you want to honour and respect Liz's wishes and look out for her daughter . Again I say with kindness that you have more than done this and been a support and comfort to her daughter .

For whatever reason the daughter does not want to maintain the same level of contact with you now . I don't think you can force this and force a conversation . You have to respect her wishes . I know that you will feel a close bond with her and this may be a way for you also to keep a connection with Liz .

I think you need to step back now and let the daughter live her life as she sees fit . It may well be that she does as others have said , associate you with her mother's illness and passing . You have to accept that it may be painful for her to maintain the same level of contact as before .

I think you should revert to Christmas & birthday cards . Perhaps sending a nice letter each time or a small gift . Keep these upbeat about what you are doing with no pressure for catch ups . The ball is then in the daughter's court about if she wants to catch up . You will have to accept that she may not wish to . Again you will have to respect her choice .

You do sound like such a lovely and kind person and it is difficult not to feel hurt when friendships / relationships aren't on the same level . It does seem like the daughter is not able to match the previous level of connection you both enjoyed .

I have also been hurt in the past when friendships and relationships haven't been reciprocated to the same level . I think you do need to lower your expectations and accept also that not everyone is able to show / give the same level of thoughtfulness . I would often think about what I would have done if I was that person in the situation . But they aren't you .

Take care .

Behaviour is communication. Emily has made it very clear that she doesn't want a close friendship and you should respect that rather than forcing her into an intense conversation of the type she's clearly not comfortable with.

It actually sounds like she is fine with a birthday/Christmas card relationship, so why not just continue with that plus the occasional friendly ("I saw this and thought of you") type message? If she never replies then after a year or two you can let her go altogether.

I agree with others that it is time to let go with love. You helped Emily a lot (in quite an intense way, really) and that was your choice. The crisis has passed now and normal life has resumed for Emily, which is how things should be. It sounds as though there was not a relationship between the two of you before Liz’s illness, so there is not a long history of friendship to draw on, but just this very hard time - along with possibly a feeling for Emily that you were a surrogate daughter to her own mother, in whom Liz confided in about her concerns re: Emily’s reclusiveness and lack of general capability - which might not feel great.

I am not sure in what capacity you are hoping to have Emily in your life - do you want to look after her as per Liz’s wishes? Are you hoping she’ll be a friend even though your primary bond was with her mother (who, as PPs have pointed out, was a separate person from Emily)?

it does sound to me as though you have persistently reached out a lot and she has been lukewarm. I think this is a clear, if indirect, communication about how she sees your relationship. Of course she’s going to make noises about meeting up - that is the polite British thing to do. It doesn’t mean she is keen to make plans, unfortunately.

I should try not to take it so personally if I were you.

I'm confused why you're confused to be honest. You recognised that Emily was leaning too heavily on you and slowly distanced yourself, and she picked up on that and has cooled off.

Emily is telling you what she wants via her behaviour. If she wanted to maintain a relationship with you she would do. Just leave it. I'm not sure what you are wanting - recognition for your efforts? Doesn't look like that will happen. You know you did right by Liz, isn't that enough?

I think you're right that she is saying one thing and meaning another. I would leave the ball in her court. Don't send her a Christmas card until you've received hers. Wait for her to contact you. If she doesn't after say 6 months, I think you have your answer.

Kitnip · Today 11:21

I think I'm going to have to organise a conversation with Emily in order to try and work out what exactly, if anything, she wants or needs and whether it's something I'm comfortable with.

Don't do that - just leave her be!

For Liz, please don't attempt to have any kind of conversation with Emily in which you formally frame your future relationship. Please don't put your beloved friend's beloved daughter in that position. Like many other posters, I believe that she is withdrawing from you for whatever reason and you should let this evolve into Christmases-and-birthdays with grace. You said you feel like you're in some kind of game - well, it's her move.

I haven’t read the full thread, just OPs post so this might have been said before.

It seems to me you felt Liz took you under her wing, became very good friends, then you reciprocated in the very best way by being there for her at the end of her life.

Do you feel because Liz was a mother figure to you, that you need to repay her by being an almost mother figure to her daughter?

I went through a very hard time where a very kind friend was there for me throughout in a similar way. When I got back on my feet my friend continued to mother me but it felt like they saw me still as vulnerable and didn’t understand that I no longer was, so I had to take a step back because it was keeping me a bit stuck in my problem when I saw them IYSWIM. Could it be similar? You describe her as isolated. Could you be subconsciously be treating her like she is still vulnerable and she doesn’t like it?

Also it sounds like she has a high powered job, so that probably consumes her life, where as you are retired so have more time on your hands. If she holds down that sort of job she probably isn’t as isolated as Liz or you think.

I would take her lead. Wait for her to contact you, send a Christmas card. Leave the ball in her court for a while.

Liz was your friend for her life time, Emily was more your friend for a reason. That reason is no longer there. It might have run it’s course.

Stop fixating over Emily. Liz was your friend and you did what you did (which was admirable) for her. Yes, it helped Emily considerably but that was by default. This seems to have become obsessive to be honest. I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. People drift apart and have different expectations at different stages of their lives - that's hardly front page news. In reality do you feel Emily owes you something? I also feel there is an element of wanting to control a situation here. Are you used to being in control?