Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A roundabout one

49 replies

anotherside · 20/09/2024 06:46

I’ve only been driving a couple of years so would like the view of more experienced drivers. I was waiting to join a basic 4 entrance/exit roundabout. I was indicating left (leaving at my first exit, a quarter way round the roundabout). The car to my right was also waiitng to join roundabout and also indicating left - IE signalling they would exit at my entrance so we wouldn’t interfere with one another. He/She was indicating for at least 3-4 seconds before joining the roundabout, at which point he/she began driving slowly as if their intention was indeed to leave at their first exit (my exit) while still continuing to indicate their intention to leave for a further 2-3 seconds on entering the roundabout
(ie,still indicating their intention to exit at my entrance).

I’d been observing this car closely (roundabout wasn't very busy) and so given their clear and unequivocal indication that they were NOT going straight ahead but were leaving at their first exit (IE, clear left exit available to them, continuous left indicator, slow driving speed) I decided to pull out. At which point it transpired they WERE going straight ahead after all, they had to brake (not dangerously), and I got beeped.

So I guess to summarise it’s this -

you’re on a roundabout and the car to your right is giving and has been giving clear and unequivocal signs that they’re getting off before you’re getting on - so you get on. But then car to your right changes their mind/doesn’t understand indicators etc - and so decides to go straight over after all, Are you still in the wrong for moving out (obviously not dangerously so, as in leaping out 5 metres in front if they did happen to change their mind) in front of them? And even if you are wrong to move out in theory, wouldn’t it’s application in practice mean that traffic gets seriously delayed - on the off chance that the person to your right is the 1 in 1000 that thinks a clear left signal on an obvious four exit roundabout = I’m going straight ahead.

OP posts:
anotherside · 20/09/2024 08:12

WrigglyDonCat · 20/09/2024 07:20

The lesson to learn from this OP is to eliminate gaps in your observation. Would a very experienced driver have planned to go into the gap you describe - absolutely. Would they have pulled out and forced the other vehicle to brake - absolutely not.

The reason it happens, and I see it all the time with my learners, is that there is a gap in observation - a time gap. I can pretty much guarantee you have followed this sequence:

Observe to the right - car on right coming off - we can go
Look forward
Get car moving
Get a car length onto the roundabout
Oh that car didn't turn...

What experience brings is:

Observe to the right - car on right coming off - we can go
Look forward
Get car moving
Double check observation before fully committing onto roundabout
Get a car length onto the roundabout
Oh that car didn't turn

Always, always, always have a last check before committing across the line. There will almost certainly have been at least a 1-2 second gap between your last observation and entering the roundabout (even if you don't realise it), and that is why you were caught out. On this occasion no harm done, but what if it had been a bit of a racer on your right who really gave it the beans off the line?

EDIT:

A little anecdote I like to tell my students comes from a really good learner I had years ago who did almost exactly the same thing, and I stopped them from entering the roundabout. When I asked her why she thought I knew the car had gone against their indication and she didn't, she replied "You looked". Couldn't have put it better myself.

Edited

Thanks for your reply and I totally get what you’re saying. Although out of interest, is it honestly that case that in a driving test, an examiner would not mark for “hesitation”, if a student waited until a car indicating left had actually started their manoeuvre of turninf left (ie in the example exiting at my entrance). As by the time you’ve waited for them to actually begin that turning manoeuvre you may have well then missed a gap in the traffic on the roundabout and held up other cars.

I think the element of confusion comes from during driving lessons people (including examiners) frowning/marking down on “hesitation” - when in real life driving you HAVE to hesitate in roundabouts because you can’t trust anyways signals? I’m sure at least half a dozen times during driving lessons I heard instructors say “he was turning, so you could have gone” (but actually meaning he was showing he was “ABOUT TO turn, so you could have gone”).

OP posts:
IDontHateRainbows · 20/09/2024 08:17

I wouldn't have pulled out until they had passed. Lots of people just indicate left to get on with no intention of getting off at thd 1st exit

LostTheMarble · 20/09/2024 08:22

anotherside · 20/09/2024 08:12

Thanks for your reply and I totally get what you’re saying. Although out of interest, is it honestly that case that in a driving test, an examiner would not mark for “hesitation”, if a student waited until a car indicating left had actually started their manoeuvre of turninf left (ie in the example exiting at my entrance). As by the time you’ve waited for them to actually begin that turning manoeuvre you may have well then missed a gap in the traffic on the roundabout and held up other cars.

I think the element of confusion comes from during driving lessons people (including examiners) frowning/marking down on “hesitation” - when in real life driving you HAVE to hesitate in roundabouts because you can’t trust anyways signals? I’m sure at least half a dozen times during driving lessons I heard instructors say “he was turning, so you could have gone” (but actually meaning he was showing he was “ABOUT TO turn, so you could have gone”).

Edited

It is irritating that modern day tests ding you on ‘hesitation’ when you simply can’t trust the car next to you to manoeuvre correctly. I live in a city where the taxi drivers seem to feel the roads are their personal property so I’m hyper cautious when I’m near one, luckily my driving test was early in the morning of the summer holidays so none of the usual manic race to schools or work. Driving tests seems to expect you to have the same instincts that a driver of 10+ years have, but the reality is that’s one of those things that comes with independent practice over a long time.

WrigglyDonCat · 20/09/2024 08:29

@anotherside wrote: "Thanks for your reply and I totally get what you’re saying. Although out of interest, is it honestly that case that in a driving test, an examiner would not mark for “hesitation”, if a student waited until a car indicating left had actually started their manoeuvre of turninf left (ie in the example exiting at my entrance). As by the time you’ve waited for them to actually begin that turning manoeuvre you may have well then missed a gap in the traffic on the roundabout and held up other cars.
I think the element of confusion comes from during driving lessons people (including examiners) frowning/marking down on “hesitation” - when in real life driving you HAVE to hesitate in roundabouts because you can’t trust anyways signals? I’m sure at least half a dozen times during driving lessons I heard instructors say “he was turning, so you could have gone” (but actually meaning he was showing he was “ABOUT TO turn, so you could have gone”)."

It is more complex than would/wouldn't mark a hesitation. The whole situation is assessed. So in the case you describe, the roundabout was quiet, and even if you have a few cars behind you, you wouldn't hold them up for long if you missed a chance that most experienced drivers would go for easily. Therefore probably no fault for hesitation.

If it was a really busy roundabout where you have to take small gaps, you might get away with not going for the first such gap, but once you have been there a while and should have an eye for the traffic on the roundabout, you will be getting into fault territory if you are not going for relatively straightforward gaps as you are now starting to have a significant effect on other traffic.

Of course there are really tight gaps that I might go for in such situations that I would never encourage a learner to take on. I do it because I am certain, absolutely certain, of my ability to make the car go when I want, at the speed I want, and my ability to back out at any point if I realise the situation is becoming unviable. Examiners, likewise, do not expect learners to take such gaps.

Another factor which may have come into your situation, and certainly does in general for inexperienced drivers at roundabouts, is when you move.

In addition to picking up on subtle cues in terms of road position, wheel position, speed etc. of other cars, experienced drivers tend to mitigate the risk of people do something you don't expect with the timing of their movement.

A typical situation this might apply is actually where you have a car without an indicator coming around the roundabout. Are they coming in front of me? Are they leaving at my exit so not a threat? Often if you wait until you see them commit to coming off, it is too late to get on. Experience leads you to go early enough that it doesn't matter where they are going. The same might apply to your situation though - would I have made a decision and gone before their actual destination became an issue - perhaps (I would need to be there to be sure obviously).

Coffeebreakneeds · 20/09/2024 08:43

My DS failed his test on this recently. Car coming around the roundabout on his right was indicating to come off at the junction he was leaving. They were in the lane to do so then at the last minute kept going around the roundabout as he pulled out. He was sure they were turning off and didn't want to hesitate. Nothing awful happened, he stopped in time, but was failed as a dangerous manouvre. He had zero minors so drove well apart from that! Very annoying. The wrong indication and road positioning of the other driver caused the issue.

sunsetsandboardwalks · 20/09/2024 08:50

I think the element of confusion comes from during driving lessons people (including examiners) frowning/marking down on “hesitation"

What would or wouldn't happen in a test scenario isn't really relevant to what you do in real life, though.

In real life, you're the only one responsible for your car, so if the only way to avoid an accident is to wait a couple of minutes they that's what you have to do. Nothing bad is going to happen to you if you take a bit longer than strictly necessary to make your manoeuvre.

Coulddowithanap · 20/09/2024 08:53

We need a diagram!

Sounds like you entered the roundabout when it wasn't clear. Is that right?

bozzabollix · 20/09/2024 08:56

I’m a driving instructor, this is a tough one really. I teach my students to look at both signalling and car ‘body language’ eg speed, positioning etc before making the move to come out. The other car was incorrect to be signalling left and then going straight ahead, you’re also correct to proceed if it looks like the car to the right is taking the exit before you. But had you got video footage I wonder what the positioning looked like, were there clues to their intention besides the signal?

To the people saying just stop at a roundabout, you don’t, you can fail for hesitation on a test for doing so based on the possible rear shunt you could have if the car behind assumes you’re going to go.

In conclusion, the other car should be rethinking their signalling before beeping you! They had a very good part to play in the situation.

sunsetsandboardwalks · 20/09/2024 09:00

Coulddowithanap · 20/09/2024 08:53

We need a diagram!

Sounds like you entered the roundabout when it wasn't clear. Is that right?

She thought it was safe to go because the other car was indicating left to turn off at the road she was entering from.

But instead of turning off, the other driver carried on straight over the roundabout so OP pulled into her path.

sunsetsandboardwalks · 20/09/2024 09:02

To the people saying just stop at a roundabout, you don’t, you can fail for hesitation on a test for doing so based on the possible rear shunt you could have if the car behind assumes you’re going to go.

But wouldn't they be the fault of the car behind for not having enough stopping distance?

What if a child runs out, for example? Surely you should always be prepared to stop and not just assume the other driver will go? Confused

Button28384738 · 20/09/2024 09:03

They were in the wrong but I was taught to never pull out unless you're sure the car is turning (as in starting to turn) or if there's plenty of time for you to enter the roundabout and not cause them to have to break dangerously if they are in fact going straight ahead

Coruscations · 20/09/2024 09:06

When I learnt to drive, I was firmly told that I should never make assumptions that people indicating actually mean what they say. They may have put the indicator on by mistake or failed to cancel it, or just change their minds. You should have waited to see whether the other driver firmly committed to coming off at the first exit before pulling out.

IDontHateRainbows · 20/09/2024 09:09

I'm hesitant to pull out at a normal t junction even if someone is indicating left ( to turn into the side junction). Until they slow down and begin to turn I always worry that they may be pulling in after the junction, which would be a dick move, but there are a lot of dicks out there. Or they've left their indicator on or something. I once had someone have a go at me for not pulling out onto a dual carriageway but, well I'm still alive so I guess that's better than the alternative.

anotherside · 20/09/2024 09:11

sunsetsandboardwalks · 20/09/2024 09:00

She thought it was safe to go because the other car was indicating left to turn off at the road she was entering from.

But instead of turning off, the other driver carried on straight over the roundabout so OP pulled into her path.

Correct, it’s not a complex one. Thoigh I’d also add they were signalling incorrectly both before entering the roundabout and for at least 3 seconds after entering and were also driving very slowly indicating to me they were about to turn off. Anyway, I can accept that I was technically in the wrong for pulling out. I’ve been getting better at not completely trusting “lack of indicator” - will now have to improve at not fully trusting “indicator” !

OP posts:
Pussycat22 · 20/09/2024 09:14

Lass, it's every man for himself at the roundabout! You look after you. You will not get highway code behaviour I'm afraid.x

Inkypot · 20/09/2024 09:14

Always remember the golden rule- even if they're indicating, do not begin your move until they have begun the turn. This applies to all give ways. If someone is approaching with an indicator on, do not start moving until they begin their actual turn. Keeps you safe and means you won't end up causing an accident. As you only passed a few years ago this will still be fresh in your memory I'd hope.

AgileGreenSeal · 20/09/2024 09:15

Never move based on indicators.

Only move when you know it is safe to do so.

Basically you have made a driving decision based on a signal given by another driver. The only signals you are legally expected to make driving decisions on are traffic lights etc and signals given by police.

sunsetsandboardwalks · 20/09/2024 09:16

@anotherside I suspect they just got their exits mixed up which is easily done, or they were on autopilot to go to X when ever we're really going to Y.

Not that that makes them any less at fault but it does show that nobody can be trusted on the roads Grin

anotherside · 20/09/2024 09:16

that’s good advice @AgileGreenSeal and @Inkypot

OP posts:
MonsteraMama · 20/09/2024 09:50

My grandad said to me when I was learning to drive "Never assume anyone else on the road is competent, assume they're all blind idiots who've never driven before". I've lived by that rule and it's worked well for me!

malmi · 20/09/2024 10:36

You didn't do anything wrong and there was space and time for them to brake to compensate for their erroneous signal.

If they had been going faster or were at the point of turn and didn't look like they were turning, you would probably have realised they weren't turning off and waited.

If there is time and space to correct without it being an emergency stop, it's fine to trust the signal and go. Like you said, if everyone waited for every car then the roundabout wouldn't work.

Inkypot · 20/09/2024 14:15

malmi · 20/09/2024 10:36

You didn't do anything wrong and there was space and time for them to brake to compensate for their erroneous signal.

If they had been going faster or were at the point of turn and didn't look like they were turning, you would probably have realised they weren't turning off and waited.

If there is time and space to correct without it being an emergency stop, it's fine to trust the signal and go. Like you said, if everyone waited for every car then the roundabout wouldn't work.

It's not fine to trust the signal and go, unfortunately. If there were an accident it would be on the pedal who trusted the signal. I say this as someone who's been driving 30 years and I live in an area of the UK notorious for its roundabouts.

Inkypot · 20/09/2024 14:15

*perspn, not pedal 😄

BrokenSushiLook · 20/09/2024 14:23

People often don't notice they forgot to cancel an indicator. My instructor told me to never trust a left indicator light until I could see the wheels pointing left and the car starting to make the turn. Same goes for if you are pulling out of a side road turning left onto a main road : a person indicating left might be turning into the same road and creating a gap for you, or might not be. Always assume thst all other drivers are homicidal idiots.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page