To think that with over 1million pensioners in poverty, removing the WFA makes Labour the nasty party, who tell blatant lies?

[TealTraybake]

And hypocritical lies at that. Just a few months ago Labour ‘vowed to be the party for pensioners’

‘Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the UK are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest number since comparable records began.
Labour, which analysed figures from Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) records, has vowed to be the party for pensioners, with plans to insulate millions of homes and reduce energy bills. It has also “committed to retaining” the triple lock which guarantees annual rises to the state pension’

I understand the WFA should be means tested - but the current threshold is far too low. Food prices have gone up. Energy prices have gone up. Some pensioners need that WFA 🥺.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/nearly-1m-uk-pensioners-deprivation-official-figures

I'm missing out on the payment- already it's turned cold here and I'm wearing three layers as it's cold indoors and I don't want to put the heating on. I might just go out on the bus, stay on it for as long as I can. It's heated!

Pensioners living on around £12,000 are not well off. There would be outcry if the government decided to make "difficult decisions" and start stripping away child benefit / universal credit from families. There would rightly be outrage if we expected families to live in poverty so why is it ok to expect vulnerable pensioners to live on such a meagre amount.

Er families do live in poverty…

”The government has estimated that 4.3 million children, or 30% of all children in the UK, were living in relative low-income households after housing costs in 2022/23. This represents an increase on the previous year.”

Child benefit has been stripped away as its means tested whereas the equivalent that my parents received away wasn’t.

Wages have definitely been stripped away.

“Real wages grew by an average of 33% each decade from 1970 to 2007; but they are now back at the level they were at in 2005, according to data from the Office for National Statistics, ONS (Times, 2023).
Indeed, the Resolution Foundation calculates that after 15 years of stagnation, average earnings are £230 below the trend before the global financial crisis of 2007-09 (BBC, 2023).”

I agree. I have no problem with the allowance being withdrawn at some point, but you don’t need to be rich to be unaffected by this ill thought through knee jerk reaction to find money to appease the unions. I do some work with a charity that supports widows/widowers in financial difficulty.

There are many, many women in their 60s and 70s with a relatively low state pension entitlement - in many cases under £10k a year. They have other pension income, also low because their careers was interrupted by children and their pension entitlement impacted, or they have the residual of their late husbands pensions.

They have more income than the £16k pension credit threshold, but often only £18k to £20k. They live in houses that they own, often modest 2 or 3 bed properties, so no entitlement to any help with accommodation costs. They can’t afford to run a car.

£18,000 pension income sounds reasonable, but it’s under £17k after tax. With no support towards council tax that number is then nearer £15k, or £1,250 a month.

Research shows they are already spending more than 25% of that on bills - water, electricity, gas, insurance, broadband/phone. The essentials. So now they have under £1,000 a month for all household maintenance, personal care, transport, food, travel, gifts, socialising/going out. Thats about £200 a week. These people are not living in luxury. Having the heating on a lot more in a cold snap can easily cost £40/50 a week - these people are at home a lot. The £300 really helps them.

They don’t fit the part of the governments definition of a working person which refers to being able to write a cheque for £300/£500/£500 to pay for repairs. But they are not working, so this government doesn’t care. They are are permanently worried about putting the heating on in winter. And yet, this government is taking £300 from 10 million people right before winter. 75% of whom expect it to materially impact them.

It’s right that not everyone gets the allowance, but it’s very very wrong that someone living week to week is scared to keep warm. And the stupid thing is, one ambulance call out costs the NHS at least £400 according to The Kings Fund.

The threshold of £16k is far too low. It should be at least the equivalent of an annual income on living wage - so around £24k, which would take swathes of women and men out of this trap. Those Labour Party evangelists supporting this policy either don’t understand its impact, or don’t care. Both, in my view, are indefensible.

I do, also, think that no tory or tory voter, given how the conservates fucked everyone over the last 14 years bar their rich mates, gets to take the moral high ground on this.

Especially when the Tory manifesto in 2017 said they'd means test the WFA. So any Tory MP who stood in that election and is now hand wringing about the unfairness can absolutely pipe down.

Keme Badenoch said 2 years ago it should be means tested and she's a front runner to be the new leader.

I agree with the arguments about the threshold being wrong. But I can't stand any Tory MP going "oh my god, means testing benefits?? Perish the thought! What an awful thing do to".

This. There is always a cliff edge with everything, and there HAS to be a cut off point. No matter where it is/where the threshold is, or if they move the threshold, there is always going to be someone whinging that they just missed out.

Something's got to give. It's a well documented fact that the wealthiest age group is the over 65s. It's time they took a hit financially. Everyone else has had to!

Exactly, they certainly would change my opinion for the better, if they done it and make themselves look more honest and relatable. They are hardly living from a food bank like some professionals.

It’s hardly comparable, any job requiring a stay away from your home would involve a paid stay, usually a hotel, bills, heating, food covered.
Do you think it would be more beneficial to put MPs up in hotels during their term?

Millennials are in their 40s, they have automatic pension payments with their employers making contributions, you have to choose to opt out, Millennials will be the first generation that will be WORSE off financially since the silent generation come pension age, there will be no top up benefits for heating, no free dental, opticians, bus pass.
Today's pensioners are the last ones on the gravy train PAID for by Gen X and Millennials.

So far absolutely no one up in arms about this has any rational reason. Some people clearly just object to the idea of it totally, some try to blame it on the cut off but there is a cut off for every single benefit. Someone will always be a pound or two over the limit, how is that unique to pensioners or the wfa?

Well said! 👏

I am a pensioner and have no issue with it being withdrawn from people like me who are doing OK and can manage without it. I think part of the problem though is that there are a lot of people who would qualify for pension credit and therefore the winter fuel allowance but are not currently claiming it for whatever reason. Apparently the claim form for pension credit is about 20 pages long and some vulnerable people will need help to fill it out. Help is limited due to funding cuts etc and organisations such as CAB will be inundated with requests for such help. By the time some of these people actually get any money it will be too late as winter will already be upon us therefore I think it is fair to assume there will be excess deaths this winter of vulnerable elderly people. If they had had more notice of the changes so as to get their claims in place in time these deaths would be more likely to have been avoided. The same can be said of the increase in the state pension overall, which is due to happen in April. It's true that the increase will more than make up for the loss of the winter fuel allowance but it won't arrive in time for winter. During Covid there was such a fuss on here about not killing grannies by negligently doing just about anything but apparently this method of killing grannies is OK?

Except this is impacting pensioners who are living on £12,000. Ex
Expecting these vulnerable impoverished pensioners to "take a hit" is indefensible.

Until I am told explicitly otherwise by Rachel Reeves and 2TK that we are all in this together and that ASLEF and MIck Lynch are sharing the pain equally with us all, then I will continue to ignore all the propaganda.

Hmmm I think it should at least be restricted in some way - at the moment there’s no incentive for them not to be ‘frugal’ (can’t think of a better word) - reeves has claimed £4400 in the last 5 years for heating costs - how much is she even at her constituency home?

Universal free school meals are a thing in reception, year 1, and year 2.

I think this is ridiculous. We don't need this (my eldest is in year 1). We actually don't use it because the quality of the food looks very poor. But it makes no sense that we could use this. It's not a sensible use of money to pay for people like me to not have to pay for lunch for my child.

Exactly. But actually we know why don’t we? The trade unions. Labour needs their votes, and in return needs to reward their votes. 🤮

Of course there's a rational reason. The pensioners at the cut off will struggle to heat their homes, will often have other conditions and if you listen to analysis will be more likely to fall and end up needing the NHS

In fact if you want reasons, apart from the bluster from some Labour MPs who want it, many covered the fear and reality from their constituents.

Plus Labour's own 2017 report on 4000 deaths

It makes sense because for every child claiming this the school gets a pupil premium, it doesn't just benefit children suffering food scarcity.

The threshold of £16k is far too low. It should be at least the equivalent of an annual income on living wage - so around £24k

What about all those on minimum wage? & most on minimum wage or living wage still have to pay housing costs so surely they should also get the WFP?

There would rightly be outrage if we expected families to live in poverty so why is it ok to expect vulnerable pensioners to live on such a meagre amount.

I don't understand what you mean by this comment when there are children living in poverty. And there's less of an outrage about it than there is about the WFA.

Of course, it's not a race to the bottom, and I think the WFA threshold is in the wrong place. But it's nonsense to say that no other group would be expected to live in poverty. Loads of people are.

This doesn’t make sense though, if they aren’t current claiming pension credit and yet somehow are still able to fund their lifestyles why do you think removal of a relatively small payment towards their energy bills would suddenly be an issue?

By not giving whopping pay rises to fucking train drivers? If there’s such an immense black hole why the fuck would you prioritise rewarding already very well-paid people?

wages are crap in this country, why shouldn’t workers get paid well?

Train drivers are pretty well paid for what’s, essentially, not a highly skilled job

There would rightly be outrage if we expected families to live in poverty so why is it ok to expect vulnerable pensioners to live on such a meagre amount.

Well given estimates put the number of pensioners living in poverty at 2million and the number of children living in poverty at 4.3 million I’m not sure what point you’re making?

💯