To think that with over 1million pensioners in poverty, removing the WFA makes Labour the nasty party, who tell blatant lies?

[TealTraybake]

And hypocritical lies at that. Just a few months ago Labour ‘vowed to be the party for pensioners’

‘Nearly 1 million people aged over 66 in the UK are living in deprivation, according to government statistics, the highest number since comparable records began.
Labour, which analysed figures from Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) records, has vowed to be the party for pensioners, with plans to insulate millions of homes and reduce energy bills. It has also “committed to retaining” the triple lock which guarantees annual rises to the state pension’

I understand the WFA should be means tested - but the current threshold is far too low. Food prices have gone up. Energy prices have gone up. Some pensioners need that WFA 🥺.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/16/nearly-1m-uk-pensioners-deprivation-official-figures

I can’t imagine the people saying PC isn’t enough to live on would think an increase of around £20 a week before the WFA cut off would really be significantly better in their view.

Wrong. My dad is 77 and left school at 14, just before his 15th birthday.

I’m not sure how lots of people not needing it but taking it anyway or spending it on their children or grandchildren is really justification for it being universal…

People could all just quit their manual jobs so they can be healthier when they are older. Because hard manual work is a lot more strenuous than shuffling papers on a desk. Just dont moan when you cant get a roofer or a builder. People who do these types of jobs are more likely to suffer physical problems when older. IMO there should be an earlier retirement age for manual workers

In which case he did it illegally.

No he didn’t. Why would you think that?! The school leaving age wasn’t increased from 15 to 16 until 1972. Between 1947 and 1972, 15 was the legal age to leave but if you had a birthday in the holidays (like my dad) you could leave at 14.

Yes, but it's not just about what they've paid in, is it? Because if we take that approach then pretty much everyone with children taking advantage of subsidised childcare hasn't paid enough in, have they? And neither have the millions on in-work benefits either. Or those getting housing benefit...the list goes on. I have literally paid in millions, and got pretty much nothing out...but under your approach I shouldn't have paid anywhere near as much!

I really don't understand why this government, and its mass supporters (not, notably, the influential ones), are so focussed on dragging everyone down (remember, another 1 or 2 million people in fuel poverty as a result of a deliberate government action) rather than focussing on things to deliver the growth they have talked about, and lifting everyone up.

To give Labour their credit, they've done a cracking job of getting their supporters to defend the indefensible when it comes to the winter heating allowance. Notably however they haven't convinced anyone influential in this space. Most notably, Mumsnets darling Martin Lewis...or the unions, or the more senior members of the party all of whom are vocally against, and have done more research than the government!

@Chrishelle

Do they not deserve, in their twilight years, a little peace, warmth, security, not having to worry about finances?

@Bomdigi

There’s all sorts of people and types of families. Many pensioners will not have worked all their lives and had any children or even taken proper care of those that they did have.

There’s also millions who were tradespeople and black cab drivers who only accepted being paid cash (the card reader was always broken) and didn’t pay their full tax and National Insurance. So those people are probably also whining about the WFA when they didn’t even want to pay their fair share in the first place.

My point is, that pensioners aren’t some blanket group of frail old people and a lot of them didn’t even pay much into the system but still have a massive sense of entitlement.

Exactly this. ^ Many pensioners now who come out with the 'pensioners have worked all their lives' line have barely done 10-15 years work in their lifetime. And even some of the ones who did, would take cash in hand for things and not pay their way/pay their taxes. Plenty did pay their way of course, but plenty didn't!

Of course there are going to be some pensioners who are going to feel the pinch a bit, (from the winter fuel payment being stopped and them only just being above the threshold,) but the vast majority won't. Unlike when many other things were cut or cancelled for people, (like PIP and ESA,) or fees raised - or even tripled (like tuition fees for University Students.)

As @Mooneywoo said

Well it’s easy to say it because it’s factual. Close to a third of all pensioners in the UK are millionaires. That is not some tiny majority in the slightest!

Exactly! I don't think a third of people 60 and under are millionaires somehow!

Also, trying to suggest that people are callous and are 'wishing suffering on older people,' because they think removing the winter fuel payment for people who earn over a certain amount is not a bad idea (as a pp said,) is ludicrous.

As has been said, these same pensioners whining, didn't give a shiny shite when things were taken away from people younger. They can pay lip service now with their faux sympathy, but they're not fooling anyone. They didn't care, and they never spoke up for anyone, so frankly I am GLAD they have removed the winter fuel payment for the majority of pensioners. All I will say - like I said way back in the thread - is the threshold should be raised, to at least £30,000.

No impact assessment was done. Now where have i heard that before 🤔

I don’t disagree that really in principle state pension benefits should be available earlier for very manual jobs.
Really hard to draw the line and execute but it’s hard to justify a builder or cleaner needing to work to the same age as an office worker.

they are getting 15k PA pension then they weren’t paying in 15k per
year out of their salary into their pension pot when they were working.

The state pension is £11.5k and many of us who were higher tax payers won’t ever see anything like the amount we paid in over a 40+ year period unless we live to be very old indeed. That’s why we’re fortunate enough not to need the WFA.

Well, this is true. For safety maybe there should be an earlier retirement age, but I do know some people (above retirement age) that just can’t go from being constantly busy and having something useful to do, to retiring and being at a loose end.

With my health suggestion, obviously I just wrote it down on the back of a fag packet so it’s hardly fleshed out, but at least with lowering the percentage of people that smoke and drink too much alcohol there’s multiple benefits for themselves and their families as well as for the NHS.

The other thing to consider is that if old people were all more healthy then when they get cold they can just do 100 press ups instead of needing heating. (Yes, that was a joke)

When I mentioned paying in I was referring to those that haven’t fully paid in and yet still complain. It wasn’t about my opinions on the welfare sector.

But @Bomdigi , is the state pension a benefit to which people have contributed throughout their working lives, or is it welfare?

It’s considered a welfare benefit.

But pensions go up next year by a larger amount than the WFA and lots could claim pension credit but aren’t. Those that are struggling should be looked after but the answer to that isn’t give it everyone- that’s a massive waste of tax payer money.

No one is saying give it to everyone. They are saying withdraw it at a level that doesn’t push between one and two million people into fuel poverty. And it’s disingenuous to say “oh well, pensions are going up by more”, because other bills are are going up as well. Council tax and food for a start.

The first month that the increased pension will be paid is in May 2025, after the winter.

I agree with this. I know quite a few manual workers who struggled once they got to late 50s/60s because of the nature of their job.

It is now. It never used to be.

It's not just smoking and alcohol though, diet plays a major part in keeping healthy. Obesity puts a great strain on the NHS, pun not intended.

You look at the amount of poor quality processed food we eat in this country.

I think it always has been though, hence being a state pension. All benefits are paid for by contributions from working people via taxes (NI etc) and some people are eligible for them (Universal Credit, Statutory Maternity Pay, Child Benefit), including state pension, and some people are not. All are some type of benefit paid out by the government though.

Indeed. Maybe the proposed ban on advertising fast food before the 9pm watershed will bear fruit in the future.

It hasn’t. It’s only been viewed as a benefit in the last decade or so. Thank you so much for explaining the welfare system to me - how did I manage to get through 71 years without your superior knowledge?

By the way, it’s funded by working and non working people. I still pay tax.

It used to be considered as a separate payment. Under Cameron’s government it started to be called welfare handout and lumped in with the rest.