To ask if anyone is clued up on the challenge this week to VAT on school fees?

[feesss]

we went to look round a school this morning and we obviously asked about VAT and the lady showing us round said there has been a challenge this week so it may not happen? Is anyone aware of this? I can’t see much online about it?

You're not wrong on the law.

People are just clutching at straws.

‘Trips, music lessons, transport are all optional. ’

Sure. And there’s absolutely no expectation that students go on outings, take any extra curricular activities of any sort, do any instrument lessons, or Lamda etc. in private schools…
they’re purely about the academics, no ‘rounding’
activities needed at all. Plus,
as all the parents are minted they don’t work so have time to drive the kids to schools, even in other towns, and don’t need to use those little mini buses that are everywhere picking up kids. Those buses, I expect, are mainly for show and just drive around to advertise the school.

Each school is different so you can't make sweeping statements.
At DDs school lunches, extra curriculars etc are all included in fees. The only extras are LAMDA or private music.

1. Yes the Government can ignore ECHR rulings with no formal consequences. Do you think that is likely? Do you think the Government would risk the embarrassment of that ever even happening if they are advised it’s likely. Here is a link to Starmer gushing about the ECHR:https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-keir-starmer-never-leave-european-convention-human-rights-political-community-summit
2. Has any of the ECHR signatories attempted to remove educational choice via discriminatory taxation before?
3. Correct. Nobody pays VAT on the provison of education as a service though, it is deemed for the common good and therefore charitable.
4. Yes. Is there an example of VAT that only applies to certain age groups you’d care to share?

Lord Pannick on why private school education tax is likely illegally https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/labour-private-school-tax-raid-likely-illegal/

Yes people such as legal firms, legal experts, the ISC and people who think ECHR protects their right to educate their children all clutching at straws. They should save themselves the effort by consulting the human rights experts sitting around on mumsnet.

Its obviously not going to even make it that far before being delayed and then dropped, the amount of people sucked in by this basic divisive identity politicking to get votes is worrying.

It's very naive of you to believe that lawyers have any interest in this other than financial. Some parents are clutching at straws, others are acting purely from a business perspective.

I won't go over what some other posters have already comprehensively explained. There may be accommodations made but it will go through.

German Christian families who had opted out of state education have brought actions on these grounds to the ECHR after they were told they were in breach of German law. They lost.

This action hasn't got a hope.

Some parents are acting purely from a business perspective? What’s this now?

Lets revisit in January and see if anyone is paying VAT on education to find out who is naïve.

Nope. Germany is an ECHR signatory and EU member and it can’t selectively tax education even if it wanted to, which it doesn’t because it’s a stupid thing to do. Private school fees are tax deductible in Germany to encourage education along with most countries, guess who the outlier is?

I'll spell it out: Germany (effectively) bans home ed. Christian families in Germany take issue with this as it breaches "the right of parents to ensure such education and teaching in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions" (the same right that the current action is relying on). ECHR rules against.

If the ECHR won't rule against a signatory for an outright ban on a particular form of education, it certainly won't rule against one for merely applying different tax rules.

No. It clearly means others involved as I referred to lawyers acting for financial reasons. If you didn't understand that I'm not surprised you have difficulty with the legal concepts you've had explained to you.

Thank you, I’ll spell this out: Germany doesn’t tax education as it’s an ECHR signatory and EU member state. Germany subsidies private education choice. Whatever you’re referring to has no relevance.

If the education tax was purely an education tax, you’d be correct I.e. including all education services. It’s not though, it’s a selective tax aimed at minority to reduce their existing educational choice for ideological reasons. It’s clearly demonstrably so and clearly in breach of one of the basic rights to prevent an authoritarian Government from removing. The ECHR won’t have to rule, Labour will row back to avoid the ruling.

Were not going to decide this on mumsnet, let’s see if we’re paying VAT in January.

Some people just don’t seem to be able to grasp the fact that as the U.K. is no longer in the EU we can’t pick and choose the EU laws we like and expect them to apply to anything anymore.
The irony is that a lot of the private school parents now caterwauling about VAT and EU laws are the ones who voted for Brexit, as did many of the grandparents paying their kids school fees.

Yes, the top 8% of income earners who famously voted for Brexit. What irony.

’Some parents are clutching at straws, others are acting purely from a business perspective.’

Clearly you’re referring to lawyers acting for financial reasons, obviously! No wonder I can’t understand the legal concepts explained to me by mumsnet legal experts.

You have to read it in context of the entire post. Unless of course you were being deliberately obtuse.

Some parents are clutching at straws. It's not all parents clearly as some private school parents don't have an issue with this policy. It seems to be only a vocal minority on mumsnet.

Assume you will be paying the VAT and if it changes then its a nice surprise

Actually there are over 200,000 parents who are opposing this policy.
Plus accountancy firms, NASWUT, headteacher union, SEN charities, military organisations who represent families, tax experts etc.
IFS now says it won't raise anything, Labour also now caught saying it may not even go into state education.

Sounds like an argument for education vouchers.

And millions support it. It's going to happen.

If they won't back down on pensioners they certainly won't on the wealthiest and least vulnerable.

https://inews.co.uk/news/private-school-vat-fees-send-funding-requests-parents-3339558?srsltid=AfmBOorPdw6vYA2ySEiIMIHjxDMkefAn8n6q9E3c80ykGXCifUeqhKeV

Many councils are in a vulnerable position because of years of Tory underfunding. So its rather ironic its going to come back and bite their own supporters. Its shameful how chronic state underfunding of SEND doesn't appear to be a problem until it affects private parents.

Other than that I've seen links on here to contradict articles such as yours. I don't believe for one moment there will be a deluge. The majority will just suck it up as they can afford to. They just don't want to.

Then it's clear you don't understand the complexities of the sector, ans you don't want to. You've just bought into the stereotypes that Labour perpetuated.
I can give you 1000s of examples but I'm not wasting my energy.

‘Some parents are clutching at straws, others are acting purely from a business perspective.’
Erm yes obviously I’m being obtuse, this right here is an argument for improving education options not diluting them. I think you just got carried a bit away with the thought of upsetting those 6 year old prep school girls who have held you back your entire life, that you temporarily forgot how to type. It’s ok. Nobody’s perfect, I also make mistakes.

Its really not just a vocal minority on mumsnet, people are furious. It’s just losers like me who have some free time whilst travelling are bothering to argue. Messing with peoples kids like this is way way over the line, the divisive consequences of pushing this policy will come at some point and that’s whether it’s implemented or not.

Madness. Pp said it would be the case