Refugees "visiting home"

[Notanotherkendoll]

I'm not sure how I feel after this conversation with a friend so would like to hear other opinions.
My friend took in a Ukrainian refugee back in 2022, she was a 18/19 year old teenager. She didn't stay for long before getting employment/started studying and was able to move out but they have remained in touch and my friend sort of views herself as the girls "uk mum".
Anyway friend is once again beside herself as she has gone back to Kyiv for a few days. This isn't the city she is from but sadly the city she was from was under siege for sometime and is now mostly destroyed. She is going to visit her family who all moved to Kyiv, as the only girl her family pushed her to flee when the war started but her mum stayed put.

This has me thinking, surely if it is safe enough for her to return home to visit, it's safe enough for her to move back? I thought the whole point of being a refugee was that your own country wasn't safe, if you are going back to visit how can that be the case?

AIBU to think it's incompatible with the very nature of being a refugee to be able to visit home?

This
Only reason refugees can return home to visit family is because there’s a reasonably priced flight network. WW2 it wouldn’t have been possible at all.
And they are all at risk of being killed at any moment.

Absolutely this. For Ukranians it’s about opportunities vanishing when their home country was forced into a war. Safety being part of it but also education, work, etc also being a massive factor. Life as they knew it changed overnight. It must have been so hard for the teenager to leave her home and family.m… basically her entire life. Of course she should be able to go back freely to visit

Ah ok, just a bit of semantics then.

timenowplease · Today 11:31

Peakpeakpeak · Today 10:58
She's not a refugee. Cancel the refugee cheque. The whole premise of this thread is wrong.

What is she then?

An individual human being on a temporary visa, the same as many given them to come to do specific work, or study here. They have a slightly different status in terms of entitlement but very similar.

Not in the slightest, no. Legally the two are very different. Different legal tests, one has a process in place for settlement while the other doesn't, and crucially, people with leave to remain under one of the Ukrainian schemes aren't at risk of losing it if they return to Ukraine whereas a recognised refugee would be. The last point is particularly important when OPs question was about going back.

No the difference between a person on a temporary visa here and one awarded refugee status here is very different.

She's apparently fleeing a war so that makes her a refugee, whatever her legal status.

Really safe. 75km from Poland

x.com/saintjavelin/status/1831234241260097988?s=46&t=En7uHsBtveeyWz6jMQkU-A

No it doesn't. Why are you posting this when you obviously don't know anything about the law in this area?

I actually don’t think it is unreasonable of the OP to say that she is confused. Due to the media, we get a very polarised and simplistic message “migrants bad, poor refugees fleeing from unsafe condition” with no nuance. If you have no experience, no reference point, it can be difficult to understand the logic - if a country is unsafe, why is it safe to go there on a ‘holiday’? Some people find it harder than others to put themselves in other people’s shoes.

One thing to consider is for you personally, what situation could EVER be worth leaving your home, family, job, life… for potentially unknown in a country with a different language… hoping you will be safe but not sure…? Or send your child off etc, not knowing they will be safe…? and realise that this is the point that all refugees and asylum seekers have actually experienced in real life.

I think previous posters have adequately expressed:

1. It is not safe. It is not safe. It is not safe. It is terrifying. People are taking the risk anyway, in order to see loved ones. If you are worried every minute that you may never see your family again, you will often take the risk (perhaps a considered risk) to see them.
2. Ukrainians are not here as refugees, although they may be called this unofficially.
3. It is not in any way to be compared to what we may imagine a holiday. Normally, we wouldn’t come ‘home’ from a holiday wondering ‘is this the last time I’m ever going to see my …?”

This has me thinking, surely if it is safe enough for her to return home to visit, it's safe enough for her to move back?

Sounds like the kind of thing NIMBY's say.

My friend is Ukrainian, not a refugee but able to live here. She is currently visiting her family in Ukraine who are too old to leave, she posts on Instagram videos of the constant air raid sirens. Travelling to Ukraine is not easy either - plane, train and buses with long border waits. The war has no sign of ending so do you think they should never see loved ones again? Ukrainians are proud of their country and most would rather live there.
OP you are an arsehole.

As is often the case - first answer nails it

No it doesn’t.

It has nothing to do with 'the law'. People fleeing to other countries because of war are called refugees. They don't need any paperwork or application to be called that - that's what they are.

In any case, that's what we've been calling them, that's what the government's been calling them and that's what the main stream media's been calling them.

Is this a bit like the Covid shot? We never made you have it! We never said it would stop you getting it! We never said it would stop transmission! We never said it was perfectly safe!

I do wonder about how hard-up financially and 'fleeing war' some of the Ukrainians that have come over are. One lives in my street drives a fancy Lexus .. under the homes for Ukrainian scheme. Doesn't seem to work and has a nice free place to live.. I do think some are taking advantage perhaps not necessary as clearly he has a good extra income. Not 'refugee bashing' but just a valid observation

Of course it isn't safe to return. Do you ever read the news?

It isn't safe for her to visit, either, but she will of course know this and has decided that she is willing to take the risk, for quite understandable reasons.

@Devilsmommy

@dyzzie

Gosh, let’s think about this for a minute…

Lots of British born working people are professionally qualified/own their own business etc. and earn a high salary and therefore can afford a higher standard of living including taking 3 or more foreign holidays a year.

Incredibly, people living in lots of other countries that are not the U.K. also have professional jobs / own businesses and earn a high salary and have a high standard of living and take numerous foreign holidays.

REFUGEES: Is it possible that people fleeing war might also have been well educated and well paid professionals with substantial savings which instead of being stored under their mattress are held in accounts in Banks such as HSBC which has branches worldwide?

Or have you been lapping up the racist newspapers that try to sell the idea that all refugees are desperate to live in the U.K. in order to sign on for benefits?

FWIW, I have 3 members of my extended family who are foreign born and all are educated to degree level, hold down professional jobs and tend to return to their home country to visit relatives pretty frequently. Two came to the U.K. originally as postgrad students. The UK is bloody lucky they chose to stay and work here!!!!!!

It couldn't possibly have anything more to do with the law, in fact. The Dunning Kruger vibes in you are strong. There are a great many people fleeing wars who don't get the relative protection of refugee status. The mere act of fleeing certainly doesn't create it.

The one thing you've got right so far is that refugee gets used colloquially. But that's a problem here because being a refugee has a legal meaning and one that would also impact on the ability to legally return to the home country. That doesn't apply to the woman OP is talking about, ie the whole subject of the thread.

My friend moved overseas from Syria. His parents then came to join him during the war after he arranged their visa at great expense. They kept going back home because they were home sick and missed everyone which drove him mad because it absolutely wasn’t safe and he was terrified they were going to die. I guess it must be so hard when it’s PROBABLY going to not lead to you dying and you miss home so much. I would like to think I would be more sensible but who knows?

I think it’s because generally our idea of asylum is people fleeing their own governments. If you are an afghan for example saying the Taliban are after you then flying back home would be a bit mad given that the Taliban control all ports. Or if you are an Iranian dissident, you would probably be arrested as soon as you got off the plane. A lot of situations are a bit more complex and less straightforward.

I think so too. It’s a shame people can’t just politely educate the OP without all the bitchiness.

People also made the comparison with the Blitz, and it’s also a valid one. People are willing to risk visiting family in a dangerous situation, that doesn’t mean they should be obliged to move into it.

I agree with this.

FFS OP, how heartless are you.

Shes arrived back beside herself. Because it’s actually really dangerous to be anywhere in Ukraine - russia bombs peaceful cities all the time, and it’s not just the ones close to the border.

Of course she misses her family and wants to go back. Yes her Mum could come here to visit, but the men in the family can’t.

I can’t believe some people’s lack of empathy.

Some refugees are fleeing persecution and can never go back (or not until the regime in their home country changes), but it’s not Ukraine this young woman has fled from, it’s Russia’s actions towards Ukraine.

I also knew a Syrian who’s family were in a safe area and himself living in the gulf but saw an opportunity for the family to move to Europe permanently and took it. I think they immigrated to Germany. It can be a grey area because he was worried about his family, they didn’t NEED to leave as such but there was an opportunity for a better life by claiming asylum. This is btw a well educated family who will be no drain on any country they land up in but I think it can be a bit complicated.