Career vs. family - is this unfair or realistic?

[lillio]

I've just come back from mat leave. Yesterday in a meeting about settling back in our head of department told me I'd have a choice over the next few years of either missing out on time with DS or just scraping by at work (and as part of that, not being considered for promotion).

I'm under no illusions that it isn't going to be challenging, but AIBU to find that depressing and regressive? Our work can have long hours but since coming back I've been working the same hours or longer than my colleagues (including HoD) without issue. DS's nursery is five mins from our house and I mostly work from home. There were no performance concerns before I went on mat leave - I was on the top appraisal rating. If we keep saying stuff like that, doesn't it become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Well, it sounds like it's already coming true if you're working longer hours than your head of department in an industry notorious for long hours...

Sounds like a veiled threat and discrimination. I’d be making a note of that if not actually talking to HR.

Is it a male who said this?

Yes, its regressive and presenteeism isn’t a measure or either performance or impact, but being a senior female of a certain age I’m aware of the ‘unwritten’ rules.

I’ve just returned for a second time after mat leave and that would frustrate me too. I would ask for a meeting with the HOD and ask them to clarify what they meant by what they said to give them a chance to rectify - I’d also highlight that I didn’t appreciate them preempting my performance within the next few years - based on no evidence!
continue being great OP and show em!

It's coming true how, though? I'm not new to the profession. I'm in a particularly busy period and it's still been ok so far.

I wouldn’t be work somewhere that vocalised views like that to be honest.

I agree with pp's, whether true or not, that should not be said.
I work full time with 2 children and have made the decision to stay at the same level career wise for at least the next 2-3 years. I am definitely prioritising my kids. I was pretty much handed a promotion on a plate about 6 months ago but said I was not interested/would not be applying. The senior staff members, all male, could not get their heads around it at all. One slightly lower level manager actually pulled me to one side and asked was I sure. When I explained my reasons he actually commended me for being so honest, he doesn't think many would be (I basically said I could not do both jobs well at this time and therefore wouldn't put myself forward), that they would take the pay rise and scrape by doing the bare minimum.
Thankfully right now I don't want it all, but I'd get my back right up if someone insinuated I 'couldn't' have it all. It's extremely difficult but by no means impossible.
Your HoD sounds a bit of a prick.

I would be reporting this to HR personally it sounds like discrimination and a threat. Would they have said the same thing to a man?! I highly doubt it!

Sex discrimination. Start keeping contemporaneous notes and look for a new job. Ring ACAS and pregnant then screwed.

As in it's long hours away from your child. Which was one of the options? You either sacrifice time with your child or a speedy career progression.

That's awful! Definitely sounds like a veiled threat. They have no evidence whatsoever to base that derogatory comment on - you had good performance before mat leave, there is no evidence that has or will change post mat leave. Agree you must take written notes with dates and times of what is being said.

This is blatant sex discrimination, unless he has said the EXACT same thing to every man in his team who has had a baby recently

I would go back to HoD and ask for another meeting to understand this “choice” you supposedly are required to make. Ask him to give you some examples of males and females at your level who have made this choice and how that manifested and was rewarded,

For comparison: my dh is a senior director in a professional firm and they work long hours traditionally. He has had many return to work parents at mid-level management which is really a role where you absolutely graft during the busy seasons, and the returnees are NOT discriminated against when it comes to their annual review their performance is judged based on quality of work not presenteeism and hours. Women with talent who have sometimes dropped to a 3 or 4 day week are therefore still getting promoted - despite less experience than their peers without children - because the employer takes into account the fact they have achieved great results with less opportunity to obtain experience through accumulating hours.

It is NOT a given that employers will hold you back because you are now a parent, or more specifically a mum.

I would be irate in your shoes about what your HoD said to you

Can I give a little advice without meaning to be patronising.

I’ll a little older than you but not ancient 😊 Think very carefully about your next steps. I’ve broken through the proverbial glass ceiling but it came at a high cost. I now take zero shit from any male, and wish I didn’t take the “i’ll prove them I can do it mentality” at your stage.

They should value you as an employee without discrimination but also recognise we each go through different life stages that need flexibility and support. Any company who allows leaders like this through the door is a backwards employer. Thats because a) they are a legal liability b) they damage the reputation and performance of the business and c) no one wants to work with or for a dick (pardon the pun).

Good luck and don’t back down. You don’t get the time back and won’t be patted on the back for being a hero. Find a female leader mentor and talk with them. If one of my mentees told me this, I’d be engineering it such their manager would be having a very difficult Q4.

I think it's OK for them to say that as a close friend but not professionally s a colleague. Not sure if you are friends with them.

I think it's too early to tell if you'll be able to juggle workload, feel like you are missing time with DS. I have no idea how people manage to teach full time and have young kids! (I used to teach but still work in a school and married to a teacher)

As unpalatable as it sounds, there will most likely be truth in it. It took me quite a few years to realise it was ok to take my foot off the pedal a bit re promotion and in my industry at the time I had a choice whether to go all guns blazing (at a cost to my children) or settle for a slower track. I can be quite frank and say when I had been fully going for things at work, things have slipped at home. You can’t do everything quite frankly and you need to make choices over what matters most to you.

Sod the veiled thread. I bet he wouldn't have said that to a man who's just had a baby. Report him.

HR work for the company not the employee.

Thanks, all. See, what's really interesting is that HoD is a woman who's had children whilst at the company, and was promoted pretty much immediately on her return from mat leave. That had always encouraged me but now I've no idea what to make of it all!

It is incredibly regressive, especially as a woman has said it. I bet she doesn't say it to all of the new fathers.

He sounds like a sexist arsehole. I bet he doesn't say that to men when they become fathers.

That's "contact a union for advice" territory. He's literally telling you he doesn't believe mothers can get by, and I'd be worried about him mentally ruling you out for promotion.

Is it possible she is trying to give you what she sees as helpful advice? She's not saying you can't get promoted or continue to thrive at work, but that in doing so you might feel like you are sacrificing stuff at home. I think there's truth in that TBH - my eldest DC is 12, youngest about to start school, so I've been various versions of PT for over a decade and while I've not stood still in my career I have definitely had to make choices between home and work. I've passed up new jobs because I didn't feel I could balance it with the kids needs at that point; on the other hand I've taken a temporary promotion (later made permanent) which involved working basically full time and that was hard logistically and emotionally. (When made permanent I negotiated back to a PT contract)

Sometimes a project requires me to work all hours and I feel I'm not being the best parent I could be; other times a child has a long illness or needs extra emotional support and I feel like I'm only scraping by at work. I'm very lucky to have choices and a job which is flexible, but it's still a balance.

All that to say I wouldn't automatically take her words as a threat or similar. (Unless said right after or before raising concerns about your hours or whatever). I agree it's a negative thing to say and it could hide regressive assumptions but it may also just reflect her reality of juggling family and work, and she's trying to prepare you for that because she doesn't see it can be different.

Oh OP, they’re absolute shits.

find something else before your mental health declines

I’m going to give your boss the benefit of the doubt and assume it was kindly meant and she’s speaking from experience bc she’s lived it @lillio .

Any job where you are ambitious generally involves a degree of sacrifice when it comes to time with your children. That said, a good job with a good salary gives you choices as a woman and as a parent. I’ve always worked. When DC were very little, 4 days a week. When youngest DD turned 3, I stepped up to a much more senior full time role. This year, more senior again. I have a corporate job so there’s a degree of flex - I can leave early to go to assembly occasionally, block out time to go to book parade etc - but I do miss things. I’m not around school in the same way SAHMs or mums with more part time jobs are. If I am in a Board meeting I cannot leave that day.

However my job has enabled me to leave my abusive exH, to buy out our family home, to take my kids on great holidays, to maintain our lifestyle in a way that many single mothers just cannot do. Thank God for the sacrifices I made to hang on to my career through those early baby years.

She probably feels she missed out on time with her kids and wonders if it was worth it, or whether she should have gone mummy track a bit when they were little as she feels she won’t get that time back again. Every working mother asks herself the same question.

I'd have a choice over the next few years of either missing out on time with DS or just scraping by at work
This is factual; hours in the day are limited and if you work regularly 8am-8pm then you can't see your child for more than minutes per day, meaning you miss out on a lot of their baby and toddler changes. If you rigidly 9-5 or reduce hours and add flexible time, them you simply can't produce as much as you could on 10-14 hour days.

(and as part of that, not being considered for promotion)
This is not true. A good HoD should be able to see past more immediate time constraints and be looking 5+ years down the line when assessing promotion. Depending on detail of the job, a management role can require fewer hours, offer more flexibility most days of the week, have better timings (evening client meals with DH at home and a morning off with the baby) etc.

You know her and were there, so do you feel it was meant kindly (her own regrets perhaps at missing baby time) or as a promotional threat? Might be best to have another chat with her either way, and go through why she feels there is a possible promotion impact. Have a chat with ACAS first to understand the legal position on non-discrimination, at that might give you some helpful sentences to pop into the conversation.

Yes which means they don't want tribunals caused by their staff for discrimination!

@lillio you might find that's how she felt or what she did so feels primed to force it onto you. Either way it's not correct and is very borderline!