to disagree with clearing prisons to make room for "rioters"

[onceandneveragain]

to be clear, I do not agree with the riots in any way. I think all who participated were pathetic and deserve punishment. But I really do not think the combination of extremely harsh and inconsistent sentencing (compared to the same crimes outside of 'large scale public disorder') with letting other convicted criminals out early to make room for them in prison is a good idea.

It's very well known that currently most shoplifting is unlikely to even get police attending, let alone any prospect of criminal conviction, even if it is repeated and large scale. So someone regularly stealing hundreds of pounds of alcohol from tescos won't ever even get arrested, but someone stealing a few sausage rolls from greggs will get a few years custodial sentence. That's already ridiculous. But then to make room for them in prison by letting other convicted prisoners out on license when they've only served 40% of their sentence - when the chief inspector of probation has already warned that "Inevitably things will go wrong" www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce81wk4ej3ro (because they don't have enough probation officers to oversee them all!) - how is that safe or logical?

I put "rioters" in quotation marks because I would be fine with 'making an example' of those who actively engaged in rioting - who smashed shop windows and threw bricks at police officers. But look at some of these examples - www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c5y8x2nnwx7t

The 15 y/o stealing a bath bomb and a corned beef pasty without any prior criminal record is unlikely to be a huge threat to society. The councillor's wife posting racial incitement is clearly a hugely unpleasant individual, but as far as I can tell, neither she nor the guy who got more than three years just for re-posting her statement actually went out and did anything. If everyone who was a racist twat online got sent to prison they'd be twenty to a cell.

They should absolutely be punished, but if it's a choice between them being in prison, or someone convicted of assault/death by dangerous driving (an example of which was also in the news today for receiving what the family thought was a far too lenient sentence)/or far more serious theft I know which I think is more of a risk to society. Given the effort, time, and cost in convicting criminals, it's ridiculous to then let them out even earlier than they normally would under early release schemes, just to 'make an example' of people who in any other circumstances wouldn't have even seen a magistrate, let alone received a jail sentence.

Wouldn't hitting them with significant fines or properly monitored and enforced community service as a first resort (and then possibly automatic imprisonment if they fail to pay/turn up) be better, both for the overall safety of the population, the country's finances (actually getting money into the public coffers instead of the huge cost to keep someone in prison), if community service actually doing something to help the places that suffered as a result of their actions and filling in the gaps for councils who apparently can't afford to trim hedges/pick up rubbish etc., be more rehabilitative and fairer/more consistent?

Not looted but a library set on fire.
Idiots.

They didn't do it of their own accord, mostly it was all whipped up on social media, those people need to face consequences too.

They DID do it of their own accord.....they know right from wrong and we've always had media on some share or form. It's no excuse

I remember when TV was blamed for societies ills.
I'd like to think most of us know right from wrong.its how you choose to act on it.

How do prisons need to be 'harsher'?

I know hello miss you work in that environment and agree with a lot of what you post
My knowledge of prison life is second hand through books both by prisoners and staff.
Holiday camp they're most definitely not.

I have no problem with people who engaged in violent disorder facing the consequences of their actions and I do think Lucy Connolly should face consequences; you cannot get away with encouraging people to set fire to buildings with or without people inside them.

I am concerned about people being denied bail and being given custodial sentences for things they have written on social media. Their posts maybe reprehensible but if they are not calling for violence I'm not convinced a 2 year custodial sentence is defensible particularly when people who have committed violent crimes and sexual offences are receiving suspended sentences because of prison overcrowding.

The people saying dumb shit like 'we need a deterrent' don't understand why riots happen. It's civil unrest it's because people are discontented in some way. Locking people up will do nothing the jails are already overflowing. The only way to treat problems like this is to address the root causes. Unrest is a symptom of inequality, poverty, governments that refuse to listen, wealth devide, lack of security, stability, equity and opportunity... I could go on.

Crime is basically unpublishable now as op suggests, the law has become dysfunctional where what you have done has no or little indication of what consequence you will receive. Plenty of crimes, even violent ones, no unpunished or result in suspended sentences or very short 'slap on the wrist' type treatment. The justice system is broken and needs an overhall.

particularly when people who have committed violent crimes and sexual offences are receiving suspended sentences because of prison overcrowding.

Who? Where? When?

@Anotherparkingthread

So why did the rioting abruptly stop? I mean, it kind of ended once the first few arrests started.....

The “root causes” of the riots were not addressed but they stopped rather abruptly. So the argument that we must solve for the root of white racist angst before we can have safe streets is silly. The riots were themselves violent, anti social, behavior. They stopped when consequences were meted and the costs outweighed the psychic benefits.

I don’t know a huge amount about the crimes that have been committed.
But I find it quite chilling the number of people who say these rioters needed harsher than usual sentences in order to send a message or stop the riots. I don’t agree that the judicial system should be manipulated by politics like this. I don’t think it’s right that the prime minister can tell the courts to lock up people with harsh sentences. That should be up to the judiciary, independent of politicians. I find that level of political control over the courts deeply concerning.

Just a few examples

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13768989/child-rapist-spared-jail-prison-overcrowding.html

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/01/man-who-shared-indecent-images-with-huw-edwards-named-as-alex-williams#:~:text=The%20man%20who%20shared%20indecent,jail%20term%20earlier%20this%20year.

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/24539641.women-attacked-man-broad-daylight-bradford/

The riots are no longer happening so it looks like the dumbshits are right and the deterrent worked.

Are you suggesting that we should have allowed the riots to continue while we worked out the root cause?

@FOJN

Your daily mail link was an 8 week sentence, he would likely have not served full sentence but he breached so is awaiting sentencing still I believe. Of his own making

The other 2 links didn't appear to mention overcrowding. The CpS and courts need to be tougher on sex and child offences in my view

Unfortunately we need more dedicated prisons for these types of offenders

Bread and water. And hard labour. No playstations.

Hard labour? Like what?

The child rapist was given a two year sentence, suspended for two years, in December last year. He was given a further 8 week sentence, suspended for 18 months for breaching the terms of his first sentence.

The two other cases are examples of crimes I consider far more serious than "grossly offensive" social media posts which some people have been given custodial sentences for. I think assaulting 3 women or supplying child abuse images warrants custodial sentences but they weren't given yet we have space for people who post offensive things on the internet? I know who I would prefer in prison.

@onceandneveragain
Early release was not introduced for ‘dangerous overcrowding’. It was proposed for crowding / overcrowding.

Prisons have their designed capacity, then there is extra capacity with extra sharing - this is then ‘crowding’ but is still within capacity

lordslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/lln-2017-0049/

In July prisons had a population of approx 87,000 against a capacity of approx 89,000 (plus a margin of 1,350 - over 90,000) in August the latest population is approx 88,000, which means there is still space for another 1,000 to 2,000 before it becomes ‘dangerously overcrowded’

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/prison-population-figures-2024

Exceeding the normal design capacity has the potential to add additional issues to prison resources beyond the number of beds, with difficulties in managing the needs of prisoners to seperate those at risk and also the ability of staff to mange the numbers of prisoners, which can mean locking in cells for more of the day when normally they may be able to go to communal areas, exercise areas etc

Yeah exactly. and I wonder if all the people suggesting this said the same in 2011 when it was a disproportionate amount of Black, Asian and other non-white kids doing the rioting? My guess is most were perfectly happy to see those people locked up for stealing bottled water etc and they didn’t say hey stop and let’s figure out what’s going on before you chuck them in jail. I’d be interested to see an age breakdown of those rioters vs these rioters, because I suspect on average the 2011 rioters were a lot younger as well. So many of this lot were grown adults with kids etc which makes it somewhat more horrifying.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50285-how-does-the-publics-reaction-to-the-2024-riots-compare-to-those-in-2011

This is so telling.

In a nutshell the public were demanding harsher policing and punishments for the 2011 riots, noticeably less so with these racist riots of 2024 (where asylum seekers were nearly burnt alive). What a disgrace.

Unfortunately we have some easily manipulated people in this country who don’t think very hard before they act criminally. Every crime has a tariff and I would be certain the sentences are within the tariff boundary. The government did not tell the courts to set a sentence level but did set the tariff. The rioters could have stayed at home!

There's no bereaved family who thinks someone gets a suitable sentence after a traffic accident. They always think it’s too lenient but mostly these sentences are not overturned. Over the last 10 years, sentences have become longer. Society likes long sentences. Doesn’t work but society likes them. It’s retribution and we like retribution. If we want to stop reoffending, we need to be far clearer that addiction and lack of education and health are prime drivers of crime. Improve them and you bring done crime.

We send the mentally ill and drug addicts to prison and women for fairly minor crimes. Sorting these people out would help prison space. Addicts and the mentally ill should be elsewhere, not in prison unless it’s for a serious crime.

The Tory Councillors childminding wife is a serious piece of work! Her message was vile and she will be rightly locked up. She needs to be where she cannot incite more trouble. Her husbands ‘she knows she overstepped the mark’ comment is very telling. Seriously - ‘overstepped the mark’? How low do your standards of acceptable conduct have to be
to say that. Her comments were seriously scary and extreme.

Completely agree. And I think all the hand wringing on this thread shows alot of people have remained blissfully unaware of how terrifying seeing these riots spread was to some people who knew they could be targeted due to the colour of their skin.
People who have no choice but to go into certain areas because of their job should not feel they are risking their life to do so - and people did feel scared.
People should not have to fear for their safety when going to their place of worship.
It needed stopping and the arrests and publicity stopped it.
Sentences will always be tough when engaging in rioting - it was previously- it was this time - and it will be again. It's a deterrent and it works.

The article below explains it well.

www.google.com/amp/s/thesecretbarrister.com/2024/08/14/two-tier-justice-cutting-through-the-online-myths/amp/

Yanbu.

Letting out someone convicted of manslaughter so there is room to imprison someone who threw a beer can does not strike me as justice .

I'm becoming less keen on this govt by the day.