To think it’s not ok to kill jellyfish and crabs…

[CockledEel]

So yesterday I was at the beach and a large group of children were bringing jellyfish up the beach and thinking it hilarious when the jellyfish broke up into bits and were flinging the bits around the beach. There were about 4 mums there with them, and didn’t try and stop them.
Today, a different group of kids were killing crabs/pulling the legs off. To which my mum (in her late 70’s) told them to stop. Another group of mums with the kids, had a go at my mum - saying it’s only a crab, and it’s dead already. However I’d heard her kids shouting “let’s kill it”.
Has the world gone mad?? This was the mindset of approx 20 kids in total over the two days, and 8 mums???

I think that savagery is part of human nature. There's the base self and the higher self, and that's where parenting comes in. Small children, amplified by group behaviour, can be savage.

@TheMithrasDirective

The group behaviour thing is interesting. I think that - out of the group, on a different day, in a different situation - any one of those Mums would have said : no that’s wrong.

I listened to a podcast by the author of a book called ‘The Power of Us’ - and once a group ‘takes a side’, it’s quite difficult to break out of that stance : even if it’s unreasonable. It’s how cults form, and cults will go to increasing ridiculous lengths to prove they are right, rather than face the embarrassment of admitting fault.

When I was little - it's one of my earliest memories, so I must have been 3-5 at most - my friend and I pulled the wings off a butterfly. It was my idea. I told him to do it, and he did. I can't remember why - just curiosity, I think. Anyway, we were crouched over it, looking at the parts, when my dad found us. He gave us the absolute bollocking of a lifetime. He was an angry man generally, but I'd never seen him that angry. I've never forgotten.

Both that friend and I grew up normal people with normal empathy. I'd never hurt anything or anyone, and I'd have been down like a ton of bricks if I ever caught my own kids doing anything cruel like that. I always taught them to be kind to animals, to feed birds, not scare them and so on.

Our feelings of shock, horror and anger are a result of our higher nature, but I do believe the base nature is there, baked into humanity. It would have been a survival advantage at various times in history. Education, empathy and good parenting are what keeps it in check.

Horrible!

I well remember objecting very mildly when a friend’s son was bringing very small crabs home in a small bucket of seawater, where they were certainly going to die before long.

‘For heaven’s sake, they’re minute!’ she snapped.
End of conversation. She just didn’t get it.

Lazy parenting! Those kids will think again if they get stung, pinched or a seagull swoops on them!
Good on your mum for challenging them!

@TheMithrasDirective

Perhaps it’s nature/nurture. I think the things that set us apart from other animals is socialisation, civilisation, manners - and it’s these skills that have given us the ability to dominate the earth. That’s through nurture.
Nature would be our more animalistic tendencies : to dominate, kill, eat, reproduce. Survival of the fittest. And without the nurture intervention : we behave like animals. That’s why the nurture intervention is so important, and was severely lacking in this instance.

Curiosity and learning is positive, dissecting an animal in biology. This was enjoying the destruction of an animal with no recognition of its beauty, or its right to be alive. And the nurture intervention never came, or rather - the Mum supported the actions of the child.

“It’s only a crab”.

That is not normal behaviour. Awful

Awful.Thats how serial killers start.

What would matter to me the most, as a parent, is even if the crab/jellyfish were dead, I wouldn't be keen to see my DC rip it apart 'for fun'. There's something quite savage and disregarding/disrespectful of nature about this behaviour. I would expect them to look and examine it. Without sounding smug I know my DC would never do this - they are hugely sensitive and caring of any animals, whether they see them dead or alive and also, they know I would be absolutely livid!

You are missing the point completely here

I let my toddlers chase pigeons. I really don't think it's the same and would genuinely like those who are so against it to explain. The pigeons just fly up and resettle. They are not harmed. Yes, they have expended energy they needn't have but they are not on the breadline- they are fat, regularly fed pigeons in the town square. I do not and would not let the toddlers kick or hurt the pigeons in any way, to be clear. So what's the harm?

They have also learned to run at seagulls who get too close when eating outside. I didn't teach them to do this but they've learned by watching me and their dad shooing them off.

so what if the jelly fish or crab were already dead
theres just no need to treat them like that
little gits 🤬

It was not missing the point to point out that you can’t cause pain to a dead animal. The premise of the criticism was torture - the infliction of pain. In fact, though their language was a bit Lord of the Flies, dead animals don’t feel pain.

Isn’t cruelty to animals in childhood one of the MacDonald triad for diagnosing psychopathy?

I don’t like to see this because it’s an unnecessary stress to the birds, and because it teaches young children that it’s okay to amuse themselves by treating other living beings with no respect.

I agree with @LunaNorth

@TotHappy I don’t think it teaches kindness. It teaches a child that it’s ok to bother wildlife for their own amusement.

I agree it’s not the same as hurting or kicking, but I think it’s disrespectful to the pigeon : that’s it’s feeling aren’t important so we can chase it, or get amusement from bothering the bird. If it was reversed and a bird/or considering size difference - something like a big, unknown dog continually chased a toddler, would the toddler enjoy it - or potentially be scared?
Pigeons also have this stereotypical image of being stupid or diseased : when in fact they are intelligent and don’t carry things like bird flu…
I think it’s about respecting wildlife, recognising their beauty and that they have the right to be treated with kindness. It’s not “just a pigeon”.
There are groups in London who go round untangling human hair from pigeons feet, helping them when they’ve been hurt etc.

They just looked like typical school run type Mum’s though!

As opposed to what exactly?

Whether they were dead or not, the kids were cruel.

Well we’re vegan so teaching DD to respect all creatures but we also stop to look at animal skulls or a crab leg we found once, as we are honest about what happens in nature. If the animals were alive I think what the children did was wrong (obviously, given that as vegans we think unnecessary harm to sentient beings is wrong) but if they were already dead it doesn’t seem a big issue to me.

I was on the beach a month ago. With two families next to me. Kids ranged from about 9-13 all the kids were vaping , adults handing them bottles of vodka and chucking rubbish around. I’m not at all surprised u saw this.

And honestly animals are dismembered in the slaughterhouse. It’s unpleasant but we pay people to do that. Anyone who thinks it’s disrespectful to tear a dead body apart, what do you think happens to cows, chickens, pigs etc. And they are killed first, not just found dead on the beach.

@StolenChanel

I would say your typical school Mum is thoughtful and caring. I’d say the way they’d otherwise planned their day out was this.

Eugh, I'm currently away with another parent and our combined brood and I would be fuming if they behaved that way. My daughter accidentally caught a starfish whilst collecting water from the sea, she brought it straight to us in her bucket of water, we had a look and took some photos then put it back where she found it. It's not ok to hurt animals!

@kikisparks

I think the difference is that the killing has a purpose. It’s so we can eat. And I’d hope there are sufficient controls in place to ensure the killing is humane.

The purpose of this killing/dismemberment was for fun. And I’m sure the crab/some of the crabs were still alive. It’s the fun in killing I object to.

Picture of said starfish. It may already of been dead (it was missing a leg) but still! It's not something we should play with.