To ask what you'll be doing to avoid the Labour tax hikes

[OptimismvsRealism]

Pension contributions
Gift aid
Selling my shares now while CGT is relatively low

What really worries me is that all the professionals we actually need to want to be here will just fuck off elsewhere, though.

It's not like we're knee deep in hospital doctors.

@Oldfatandfrumpy An alternative would be to make benefits taxable. They currently are by the back door anyway when you factor in fuel duty and VAT. Setting the level at say, 20% just makes it clearer.

Those on benefits wouldn’t be any worse off because the stealth taxes would disappear. It would just be much more obvious what was being taxed and to what extent. It would also stop people complaining about benefit scroungers because everyone would be paying income tax.

@StrawberrySwitch People already hide assets from the tax man. That’s the problem. As our tax system is set up to take from both income and spending it’s not too difficult for people to find a way round this. If we concentrated on one way only it would be easier to keep track of. For the wealthy who own businesses and currently hide income via dividends etc rather than declaring as PAYE, then yes, the system would need to change.

Completely unrelated.

Happy to explain.

i am singaporean and did the sums on moving back home. My husband is british and a higher rate taxpayer. We have around £150k equity in our flat in London. I enjoy subsidized healthcare (pay for health insurance back in singapore as required of a citizen)

He will take home 30% more even if he got the same salary as the taxes are quite low there. But our flat (in a similar area to our leafy zone 3 suburb) would cost us 60% more in Singapore for the same square footage (tiny 2 bed flat) on the private condo market, thereby doubling our mortgage with the sole upgrade being a tiny swimming pool on the rooftop that you can't even drown a mouse in. We need a hell of a pay raise to even get the same standard of living we have in London housing wise.

Could we opt for hdb (the government housing scheme that 85% of singaporeans live in). Yes I theoretically could buy a hdb under the singapore citizen-foreign spouse scheme but they would only calculate my income under the mortgage affordability and buy under the resale scheme and my DH can't be the legal owner (only the occupier). When my DH gets permanent residency which could take years and has fairly opaque criteria (needs to show commitment to singapore whatever that means), we could then buy hdb normally with both our incomes and both our names. However as we own a flat in London, the rule for HDB is that you have to sell your overseas private property at least 15 months before you buy a hdb flat and they will repossess your flat if they find out you own private property (flat in London also counts as private property even though this rule is actually targeted at richer singaporeans to discourage or delay them from downsizing and increasing prices for the rest; and my london flat is similar to HDB prices than private condo prices).

It would be far far more difficult for 2 expats in Singapore. Unless you are truly earning a lot of money (and the company would have to justify taking you on as many singaporeans are also equally well qualified to do those jobs and also want to), it would not necessarily be an easier life and you will not necessarily have more disposable income. We have fertility problems and even if we had kids, i would have no issue sending them to local schools which most Brits would probably not and also as you are not citizens, you wouldn't get in anyway. My potential child would be a citizen. You have to factor in hefty international school fees into the calculation.

Most low tax jurisdictions are not easy places to live in due to the high costs. Singapore protects its citizens for this reason. the reason why i am not returning is cos i have property in London. If i had been renting in London I would probably have no issue with waiting or tossing the coin on dh getting PR (same deal) and living with parents in the meantime for years as that is probably easier to do than for the average income earner to buy in London.

Most EU countries have higher taxes, America has far higher costs. my SIL in america is working a remote job and can barely afford to live and pay nursery fees even though she is living with her MIL. Higher salary is needed

The funniest thing about all of this in a dark way is people can’t see what’s in front of them.

Our highest earners already pay MORE than similar economies. It is everyone else who pays LESS. That’s because middle/low earners are low taxed. We also have a huge number of people not working.

People are very quick to target the people bankrolling the country through PAYE because it is jealousy. Nothing else. Cognitive dissonance to the absolute facts of the situation.

All the while RR has continuously discussed pensioners and the “bloated” number of people out of work and long term sick. She has always wanted to take the WFA away. She has discussed the number of people off sick. The 40% increase in child DLA awards was disclosed by the DWP last week and front page news.

As you all target the 600k odd in the 45% bracket. The ones who are literally paying over their fair share via tax and things like the loss of the personal allowance. They are coming for you. Pensioners and the long term sick don’t financially contribute enough in the eyes of Labour. You aren’t a worker under their definition so they won’t protect you. Wait and see. They are already sounding it out but you’re not paying attention. “Ooooh look at all those posters with moneyz. School fees, tax them, fuck off and stop paying for my benefits and pension then. Small violin, bleeding heart, etc.

So there are people complaining about paying too much tax but also want pensioners and the long term sick to get more?

Just had a bizaare conversation with someone on Twitter complaining about being over-taxed all his life and who is now planning to retire at.....55.

Someone who can afford to retire at 55 is not poor and clearly has not been "taxed to death".

Country's wealth is generated by two categories of people:

• Entrepreneurs like late Mike Lynch
• Middle classes both in professional jobs and small/middle businesses

For the former investment climate is critical - this category is absolutely mobile and they will register in any jurisdiction which offers better tax incentives and has best workforce.

The latter category are much less mobile but from incentive perspective their ability to keep the most of their earning and support their children is critical. When this category know that most of their earnings/profit are taken in tax and what they saved will go to taxman rather than children they will stop working and try to spend during lifetime. You may argue they still support economy - yes they do, but they don't generate anything, only consume and this is the dead end.

You might argue what you like about fairness - there is a strong behavioral impact of taxation and there is not a single example of a successful socialistic society. No society which went for redistribution of wealth survived in a long term or made people happy.

Edited to add - to get public services you want you really need these two classes thriving and willing to work.

The 45% tax bracket is much lower than 600k. It must be around 400k. This is when thresholds have been frozen for years now.

Wouldn’t surprise me with the globalisation of the roles at this level. Easy to move and continue your job on the company pay cheque.

Just because they have enough left doesn't mean they haven't been over taxed. Over taxed is taking too big of a share. People will leave over principle

It would be interesting to see what happens if the middle and above who pay the majority of tax are given a vote on how it is spent.

I would pay more for education, health and security. We don't want live if we can't look after ourselves so wouldn't like to contribute more to social care, support income protection being mandatory so NI annoys me and I don't see the need for councils to be planting flower or cutting wild hedges it should be a community job.

@ginger2026
all fair points. You sound to me like a relatively high earning professional with not a lot of assets at the beginning of life journey. You might be in the top 5% - top 10% but probably not in top 1% and are mostly focused on earned income. Once you tip into significant assets territory, earned income tax becomes a lot less relevant. It’s about CGT and taxes on assets, and yes, inheritance tax.

Multiple European countries offer very sweet deals to expats (Italy, NL for example), some have more attractive CGT/inheritance tax regime (Switzerland, Portugal) so it’s a balancing act. A balancing act that do far made sense for me to still stay in the UK but if half of rumoured taxes come through it just doesn’t make sense. Uk will probably become the least fiscally attractive country in Europe. You then might as well go to France and enjoy better weather and quality of life if not better taxes. And the worst thing is that even higher taxes won’t make public services better - NHS can’t be on par with French, German and Dutch healthcare simply because those are insurance based models. Education, similarly, won’t be the same because those countries still have grammar school system equivalents etc. something unthinkable for communist comrades.

Of course they hesitate. They wouldn’t want to tell the truth would they?

Why would you believe those who say they aren’t socialists and yet not believe those who say they are?

@Aduvetday
pearls before swine I am afraid. The ideological vitriol seems to trump people’s ability to google simple facts like source of exchequer’s revenue and who pays what.

Because they say they’re socialists and act like Tories. Labour is a democratic socialist party. It’s written on the membership card. Why would they hesitate to say they’re a socialist when they’re representing a supposedly socialist party?

Great example - so YOU believe that someone who can retire at 55 is rich enough to be taxed more. This is government's view as well so they place more burden on these broad shoulders. Yes it's very likely that this individual was high earner or had some wealth passed to them, invested wisely etc.

This 55-something was planning to work for some more years hoping to enjoy better retirement and pass more to their children. What they know is that more of their wealth and income will be taken and it's most likely that their children won't inherit much from them. So instead of continuing working, contributing to economy and paying taxes they retire and spend everything during lifetime.

UK has significant skills shortage and jobless level is pretty low. Some of these retiree's jobs will be taken, some won't but the overall number of people working and paying taxes will reduce.

Again, you might shout what you like that they are rich and unfair, you still can't force them to work.

Anyone who can retire at 55 has probably done very well from lower property prices and interest rates.

The inability of people to recognise their financial good fortune is astonishing.

And, as someone who works in local government, I can assure you there are no significant savings to be found in not trimming hedges!

Mick Lynch sold his company for 11 billion and made a personal profit of over 800m.

The incentives to invest, take risks etc are still there, the owner of the Range has a personal wealth of almost £3 billion.

Many Small and Medium businesses only make money if they can employ people on low salaries, these people then fall into the category of "takers" rather than net contributors, claiming in work benefits in order to survive.

Would you describe the USA as a successful society? or is a Scandinavian one better?

No society survives ever larger inequalities of wealth either, eventually the poor take over & then the whole sorry saga repeats itself.

I can't force them to work, no.

I'm saying that anyone who can afford to retire at 55 has been very fortunate financially.

If they have a property and don't get dementia their children will inherit quite a lot from them.

People wouldn’t be retiring early if they had to budget for healthcare into their 90s potentially.

So the message I'm getting is that it's bad to tax 50 year olds who've had all the benefits of lower property prices but OK to tax younger earners who have to contend with unaffordable property and huge rents?

Do people in their fifties (and I am one) really not recognise just how lucky we've been?

It’s a shame all those savings weren’t in an ISA, she could have saved herself £45k. So at least the Treasury’s got that.

No. I’m not in my 50s. I’m sick of paying high paye for millionaire pensioners to sit on their assets and hoard it all. Likewise the people who don’t have any intention of contributing. I am mobile and so it my PAYE contribution.

I’m definitely not jealous you know fuck all about my circumstances. I do very very well for myself it’s just that I don’t kick people down on my way up.

I find the notion of luck, a strange one.

You play the hand you are dealt in life - some play it well, others less so. But most of us try to make the best of our lot. Life is not egalitarian - it never has been. What I resent is, having paid our A LOT in tax during my working life, and barely claiming anything (if anything), I am then bled dry, and told to be grateful for it.

I dont object to paying a reasonable level of tax - services in this country are generally shit, so I will ignore that. But now, I feel hated - even though I’m expected to pay more.

Well, guess what - Labour can do one. Enough. I am not alone.

This.

@HPFA I agree wholeheartedly, it’s sickening. People complaining about their pensions being “raided” need to take a step back and remember that the majority of that pot comes from compound interest/government and potentially employer contributions. The amount of their own (tax free) income that they’ve paid in themselves is just a fraction. Why the hell do they think they shouldn’t have to pay tax on it?

It’s the same for so many rich people. They’re gifted very generous tax breaks in all sorts of ways - taking income as dividends, selling a company and getting entrepreneurs relief, CGT etc all mean they’re paying a lot less tax on their income than ordinary working people. But God forbid, the government plans to give them slightly less of a gift than they’re already getting and they’re up in arms. It’s pure, unadulterated entitlement.