Page 16 | To ask what you'll be doing to avoid the Labour tax hikes

Whenwillitgetwarm · 27/08/2024 16:08

OptimismvsRealism · 27/08/2024 11:23

The main problem for middle earners is you'll continue to find it very hard to see a doctor, dentist, etc. And growth will remain low so public services won't expand

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‘The main problem for middle earners is you'll continue to find it very hard to see a doctor, dentist, etc.’

You’ll be in for a shock when you find out how these are funded!

Mebebecat · 27/08/2024 16:10

GoldOnyx · 27/08/2024 11:34

Realistically, the only place for doctors to move to is Australia, NZ, the US and Canada, as most of them probably don’t speak another language well enough to move to a non-English-speaking country (and to do all the training needed to be a qualified doctor in that country).

Australia and NZ are both very far away from the U.K. and with huge time differences, so that is a major move. The US and Canada are closer, with a smaller time difference, but it’s still a big move. People won’t uproot themselves - and their families, if they have a families - for that sort of move unless they’re desperate.

Anyone wanting to move to these countries will also need to get a work permit and a job there, and also find somewhere to live, before actually moving there. It takes months to do all of that - at least a year.

So if they’re moving there between now and say Christmas, they would have had to start planning the move a year ago. Given all of that, I don’t think we’re going to see a massive exodus of doctors any time soon.

In fact, I’d suggest they’d be tempted to stay because, unless they already planned to move, it’s a big hassle for them to move and their wages will also (finally) go up under Labour.

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Um.. they speak the language of their home country. How many NHS doctors do you think are actually British? Why would they stay here if they have terms and conditions and taxation they don't like?

Milsonophonia · 27/08/2024 16:10

SensibleSigma · 27/08/2024 15:34

Absolutely I do! She needs to use her money to help her live comfortably, and stop trying to shaft the tax man at every opportunity.

She’s one of life’s takers- and let’s her broke grandchildren pay her way when they are out, give her presents etc, despite her own fortunate circumstances.

You can feel sorry for her if you like, and criticise my attitude, but not every pensioner is a salt of the earth diamond. Some are just tight and actually quite unpleasant.

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What if she needs a lot of care? Will you be paying for that when she's been taxed to the hilt?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/08/2024 16:11

I have high confidence that the tax payer's money is in better hands. Very high confidence

That's a lot of faith you're demonstrating there, @Didimum; I agree completely that the current lot could hardly be worse than the Tories, but whether they'll prove better remains to be seen

Unfortunately experience teaches that all governments will gouge our money, and that what really differs is the sort of thing they'll waste it on - so in many ways it may just be a matter of what kind of waste we each dislike least

Genevieva · 27/08/2024 16:11

OptimismvsRealism · 27/08/2024 11:51

I've been to Brussels a fair bit. It's pretty damn gritty considering the tax cost!

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A lot of EU staff ( the ones who travel to Strasbourg and back to Brussels) don’t pay income tax and get EU funded private schooling, so there are many for whom staying makes total sense.

InsensibleMe · 27/08/2024 16:15

MSLRT · 27/08/2024 12:33

What on earth are you on about? Such a wankerish comment. You have really made your own scenario up from two lines? I have been a high paying tax payer for most of my life and it is sickening that Labour want to take even more from those who work hard to subsidise those who sit on their arses doing nothing.

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An equally wankerish comment.
I suspect you work no harder than a teacher or a nurse.
But, you have been a high-paying taxpayer for most of your life. So if you are 50 then you were earning more than £40K at age 25? Well done you, you must be worth an absolute fortune now. Perhaps give some back to the less fortunate?

Usercyzabc · 27/08/2024 16:15

Didimum · 27/08/2024 16:01

Or they will stay and put everything in trust.

They do that anyway. If you are rich and financially savvy, you already have that in place. If you are rich and believe in public service, you will pay your part. I foresee no change in that.

I have high confidence that the tax payer's money is in better hands. Very high confidence. I cannot and will not ever, EVER forgive the humiliating and heartbreaking farce that the Tories, since David Cameron's departure, have made of the UK government. From covid 19 parties, Dominic Cummings, the Elphickle sexual assaults, Tory donors refurbishing Downing Street, Matt Hancock conducting an affair in public office, Griffiths's rape conviction, Imran Kahn's sexual assault of a minor, Neil Parish watching pornography in the House of Commons, to everything else (and there's a LOT of it) that I've missed out in-between. And where to begin in the in-between? Betting scandals, expenses scandals, Chris Pincher, more sexual assault convictions, breaches of lobbying rules and cocaine use.

God forbid anyone on this thread should be sneered at or questioned for having an ounce of positivity after having to ensure all the above and more from the individuals who are meant to govern us. It's beyond disgusting.

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Yes. Possibly.

I admire your optimism, I truly do and I hope you’re correct. Sadly, I’m not convinced but time will tell.

Agree, that is one hell of a laundry list.

Genevieva · 27/08/2024 16:16

A lot of people don’t understand that higher taxes does not always equate with higher total tax take. The trick of government is to find the sweet spot at which higher taxes does not reduce overall tax revenue. I think we have already crossed that line under Jeremy Hunt. But, with more than half of U.K. households being net beneficiaries from the state (receiving more than they pay in taxation), the tax burden on the net contributors is not a primary electoral motivation for political parties.

Didimum · 27/08/2024 16:16

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/08/2024 16:11

I have high confidence that the tax payer's money is in better hands. Very high confidence

That's a lot of faith you're demonstrating there, @Didimum; I agree completely that the current lot could hardly be worse than the Tories, but whether they'll prove better remains to be seen

Unfortunately experience teaches that all governments will gouge our money, and that what really differs is the sort of thing they'll waste it on - so in many ways it may just be a matter of what kind of waste we each dislike least

I guess one person's faith has no merit in being torn down to satisfy another person's disgruntled at being taxed when they don't want to be – but there you go.

If they demonstrate a lack of anything I set out in that list (conveniently not copies over I see ...), then they already are better. By virtue of not being rapists and sexual assaulters or whatever else you want to pick off of there.

Usercyzabc · 27/08/2024 16:18

Didimum · 27/08/2024 16:16

I guess one person's faith has no merit in being torn down to satisfy another person's disgruntled at being taxed when they don't want to be – but there you go.

If they demonstrate a lack of anything I set out in that list (conveniently not copies over I see ...), then they already are better. By virtue of not being rapists and sexual assaulters or whatever else you want to pick off of there.

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It’s about realism mostly I’d say. Their predecessors didn’t really cover themselves in glory either.

pinkfleece · 27/08/2024 16:20

cupcaske123 · 27/08/2024 11:23

What really worries me is that all the professionals we actually need to want to be here will just fuck off elsewhere, though.

You see that happening do you? Streams of professionals and their families heading for the airport because tax has gone up.

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Yes. Most doctors I know in their first 5y after med school are actively making plans to leave. And I know a lot of them.

Begsthequestion · 27/08/2024 16:23

Absii · 27/08/2024 15:48

I don't know there's much anyone can do to avoid it.

I pay 45% tax. No allowances. I put as much as possible into a pension, but could only start doing that in the last couple years, so the pot isn't very big. I'm 49 now and was planning to to prioritize pension contributions in the next few years.

I will be upset to pay more tax. I already notionally work until May each year 'for free'. Isn't that enough?

I do a professional job and have a normal, if comfortable lifestyle. No yachts/second homes/celebrity lifestyle. I'm not part of the '1%' and don't have unearned income, but these threads always suggest employees at my level should pay more.

If employment taxes increase much more or pension relief is capped in some way I will naturally think about working less. I imagine many earners in that bracket will do the same. I could also work abroad and have done before, but I'd have to balance that against needing to be here for aging parents etc.

It's the constant changing of pension ages/thresholds that bum me out the most; it makes planning for retirement so difficult.

You pay 45% tax on your earnings over £125,000.

So how do you "work until May for free"?

Sourisblanche · 27/08/2024 16:26

I know a lot of doctors too, a lot left after brexit.

Same in finance, most of our friends in finance moved to Frankfurt after brexit. So much so that it’s changed the local rental market (some German friends were having a lighthearted moan about it).

The brain drain began way before Labour started talking about tax rises.

MillyMollyMandHey · 27/08/2024 16:29

Same in finance, most of our friends in finance moved to Frankfurt after brexit.

I work in finance too and don’t know anyone who moved due to brexit, except one or two European colleagues who used it as leverage to get a nifty relocation package back to the token office of the investment bank opened in their home countries, once their children started school/could grow up near family etc. One has since come back.

None of the actual operations moved abroad.

SerendipityJane · 27/08/2024 16:31

Same in finance, most of our friends in finance moved to Frankfurt after brexit.

If these are the same financial wizards that caused the global crash, we're probably well rid of them.

GoldOnyx · 27/08/2024 16:34

Mebebecat · 27/08/2024 16:10

Um.. they speak the language of their home country. How many NHS doctors do you think are actually British? Why would they stay here if they have terms and conditions and taxation they don't like?

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I’m referring here to British doctors who might be considering leaving the U.K.

I haven’t mentioned NHS doctors who aren’t British because they probably came to the U.K. because it was more attractive than what was on offer in their home country.

In terms of why they would stay here if there were terms and conditions and taxation that they didn’t like, they’re free to leave whenever they want. But their home country probably isn’t much better than Britain, otherwise why would they have come to Britain in the first place? Also, the point I’m trying to make is that it takes a lot of time and planning to leave. They’re not just going to do it straightaway.

user68712226 · 27/08/2024 16:35

I know very normal people with mid range incomes who are swiftly gifting money to children now in anticipation of the residence nil rate band being removed from IHT. It effectively reduces the IHT threshold from £500k per person down to £325k (and probably lower if the normal IHT threshold is reduced which is bound to be). Many people have a house worth over £325k.

EI12 · 27/08/2024 16:36

GoldOnyx · 27/08/2024 11:34

Realistically, the only place for doctors to move to is Australia, NZ, the US and Canada, as most of them probably don’t speak another language well enough to move to a non-English-speaking country (and to do all the training needed to be a qualified doctor in that country).

Australia and NZ are both very far away from the U.K. and with huge time differences, so that is a major move. The US and Canada are closer, with a smaller time difference, but it’s still a big move. People won’t uproot themselves - and their families, if they have a families - for that sort of move unless they’re desperate.

Anyone wanting to move to these countries will also need to get a work permit and a job there, and also find somewhere to live, before actually moving there. It takes months to do all of that - at least a year.

So if they’re moving there between now and say Christmas, they would have had to start planning the move a year ago. Given all of that, I don’t think we’re going to see a massive exodus of doctors any time soon.

In fact, I’d suggest they’d be tempted to stay because, unless they already planned to move, it’s a big hassle for them to move and their wages will also (finally) go up under Labour.

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Bravo, on so many levels. My uncle is a radiologist, he is a md and a PhD too, and he says nowhere in the world do doctors have it as easy as in the UK. He says the only thing he is sorry about is that he is not an interventionalist radiologist in the UK as compared to the already obscene salaries of the UK consultants, these guys are on another planet. Nowhere in the world would a GP get what a GP gets here, nowhere in the world would they be OK with 'oh, wrong diagnoses, sorry person died, but lessons learnt', nobody struck off. Nowhere in the world would they be so calm about the obvious conflict of interest when working on the NHS and privately in the same specialty. And unfortunately, UK trained British surgeons are not that popular in the US and Singapore, they are just not. He does not know why, btw. Also, don't forget if you earn more than equiv of appx 47,000 pounds (95,000 joint in a dual household) you HAVE to take out private health insurance in Australia. According to Aus gov average bill to patient for calling out an ambulance is 500 pounds plus nearly 10 pounds a mile.

user68712226 · 27/08/2024 16:37

Begsthequestion · 27/08/2024 16:23

You pay 45% tax on your earnings over £125,000.

So how do you "work until May for free"?

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It's a tax illustration. If you imagine you pay all of your annual tax first then how long do you work for free. Google it.

80smonster · 27/08/2024 16:37

Moving house, reducing days in work, possibly halting private pension contributions. Country move also on the cards…

Over40Overdating · 27/08/2024 16:38

I imagine many Drs with plans in place to leave did so because they are not paid enough and/or work in a system that has been deliberately run into the ground by a government hell bent on privatisation - anyone remember Rishi’s meetings with US health insurance moguls when he was Chancellor?

Or maybe it’s the attitude of the public like a PP, who swear at them and call them
greedy for wanting to be paid adequately - we hear so much about how hard working the high earners are and how much they deserve to keep as much money as possible, so why aren’t Drs entitled to be paid for hard work?

I’ve posted the below on another thread but worth posting here.
The Queen of Tax Cuts, Liz Lettuce, sank the economy to keep the anti tax voters happy. Then apparently thought cutting chemo from the NHS could solve her problems.

That’s the reality of tax cuts and public services - let those with plenty keep
as much of it as possible and fuck those who need public services.

For those advocating an American model of health care as superior, maybe do some research on what chemo costs under privatisation. Or how many people die from things like lack of insulin.

It’s very easy to think money insulates you from vulnerability until the money runs out and you need public services to live.

To ask what you'll be doing to avoid the Labour tax hikes

Begsthequestion · 27/08/2024 16:38

user68712226 · 27/08/2024 16:37

It's a tax illustration. If you imagine you pay all of your annual tax first then how long do you work for free. Google it.

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I understand that it's an analogy or whatever.

But the 45% rate only kicks in after £125,000. It's not the whole amount that is taxed at that rate.

GoldOnyx · 27/08/2024 16:39

80smonster · 27/08/2024 16:37

Moving house, reducing days in work, possibly halting private pension contributions. Country move also on the cards…

Which country are you going to move to? And why do you want to move house? How is that going to help your tax situation?

Begsthequestion · 27/08/2024 16:41

If people want to move because their taxes are too high, I say good riddance. Even the ones who openly threaten this rarely do it. It's just wealthy people throwing their toys out the pram.

Corporation tax needs to be higher as well. It's not as if Netflix or Amazon are going to stop selling their wares in the UK just because they have to pay a bit of tax.

Sunsgoingtokeepshining · 27/08/2024 16:42

I don’t think anyone wants a US tax model. But a German one. Or any other EU system in fact.