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October budget going to be painful

1000 replies

increasinglyconcerned · 27/08/2024 10:26

Here we go..... I knew it. Labour were promising not to hike our taxes in the election campaign and here we are.... apparently they discovered £22 billion black hole in his first weeks in the role and it's not his fault.

Let me guess, those of us who earn six figures and already pay 45% will pay EVEN more and take home even less. It's the hard workers who will take the brunt. What's the point in working anymore!

I earn a little over £120k and I'm taxed the same as those earrings £500k.

Before people jump in saying they don't feel sorry for me, I work full time to support my family, as of January I will have 2 DCs in nursery, plus my mortgage and get ZERO free hours childcare, whilst they keep promising free childcare but I just pay more for everyone else to benefit.

I cannot afford to pay more taxes to fix this country and especially when so many people are getting a free ride and not paying their way, ranging from millionaires with tax havens to those claiming benefits dishonestly.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
PandoraSox · 28/08/2024 09:00

WanOvaryKenobi · 28/08/2024 07:33

I don't abuse my spouse or my kids so that's two for two in my court.

Yet you have no sympathy for the abused spouse and the kids and describe the birth of those children in especially repulsive terms, which MN thankfully deleted.

EasternStandard · 28/08/2024 09:01

WanOvaryKenobi · 28/08/2024 09:00

Living cheaply in shared housing is what plenty of individuals have to do. Pretty much anyone who has ever moved to a major city or has had some type of further education has lived in a shared housing situation. I did for many years while I established my career. Then had children after establishing my career in a stable relationship. I didn't get to my first flat and think "well this is crap, I better have a kid and start claiming benefits".

Honestly, it just sounds incredibly entitled -especially given the high tax rate I pay because I made good choices and other people haven't.

Same. Private rent was what I needed for the first few years. It was hard enough as it was to find a place, making it even more scarce will just mean demand out strips supply even more and prices rocket

WanOvaryKenobi · 28/08/2024 09:02

PandoraSox · 28/08/2024 09:00

Yet you have no sympathy for the abused spouse and the kids and describe the birth of those children in especially repulsive terms, which MN thankfully deleted.

I don't have sympathy for child abusers, no. I feel for the kids but I'm sure if I said they should have them taken away you would accuse me of being awfully mean.

Boomer55 · 28/08/2024 09:05

taxguru · 27/08/2024 10:46

I doubt that many pensioners voted for Starmer anyway. Look at the stats, Labour's number of votes didn't really rise in the last general election by much. They won because the Sunak was unpopular and the Tory vote disappeared to Reform and Libdems.

Labour won't care about the Pensioner vote. They only care about their core voters, i.e. public sector, unionised industries and those dependant upon benefits.

They don't give a flying fig about pensioners nor private sector workers. It's blindingly obvious which groups will get the hand outs and which groups will get rinsed for tax rises!

With a decent new leader and getting rid of the Tory idiots from the front bench (Rees Mogg, etc) there's every chance they'll push out Starmer at the next GE.

You have to remember that the Tories lost 3 million votes due to Rishi excluding them from the covid support (i.e. freelancers, self employed, small businesses etc), - many of them wouldn't vote for Sunak, but would probably vote for the Tories under a new leader.

I think we can be assured that although Labour are starting with “higher earners” and pensioners over the Pension Credit threshold, it won’t be long before they go after other things - like childcare funding, etc etc.

Every new year government finds these mysterious “black holes” and then they look for ways to grab money off of all of us.🤷‍♀️

PandoraSox · 28/08/2024 09:05

WanOvaryKenobi · 28/08/2024 09:02

I don't have sympathy for child abusers, no. I feel for the kids but I'm sure if I said they should have them taken away you would accuse me of being awfully mean.

Oh, so now you accuse me of condoning child abuse? Charming.

As you well know, I didn't suggest that you or anyone should have sympathy for chilld abusers or people who abuse their spouse.

Have you reported the abuse?

Moomin2020 · 28/08/2024 09:05

In an effort to appeal to people on this threads better natures, here’s my super boring, not news worthy story of the time I’ve relied on tax payer support:

I’m 27, so I’ve grown up in a time when the welfare state has been stripped to its bare bones, university fees have tripled and house prices have risen astronomically. (Please don’t try and convince me it was harder before, everyone’s struggle is valid, but if you try to convince me it was hard to buy a house in the 80s/90s I’ll combust).

I struggled academically, and I struggled with decision making (not something I’m going to apologise for at the age of 16/17) so I left school and started working in healthcare assistant roles in the NHS for close to a decade - during this time I paid very little tax due to the low pay. I had my daughter and I realised I couldn’t give her the life I’d had growing up (stable home, holidays, magical Christmases etc.) if I remained on such a low wage. So I decided to go university and train for the career I’d spent the last 7/8 years assisting. BUT and crucially - this would’ve been impossible without the support of those close to me and the noble taxpayer.

my parents gave me a place to live for 3 years, without paying a penny - if this wasn’t available I’d have fallen at the first hurdle because it would’ve been simply impossible to be a student and pay eye watering rent prices.

the taxpayer subsidised 80% of my childcare during this time, again without this I wouldn’t have been able to attend university.

the taxpayer also subsidised my university education by the way of NHS grants - without this my family would’ve starved so again, it would’ve been impossible.

so yes, for 3 years I worked incredibly hard, I had a newborn baby, I breastfed, I did essays, exams, placements, and I worked part time. It was a GRAFT. But being able to work that hard and at the end of it double my salary overnight - with the opportunity for significant pay rises in the future was a PRIVILEGE. If you don’t have people backing you, it’s simply not possible.

I worked hard in my assistant roles too, for very little thanks, long hours and at times mind numbing - I love the people that love these jobs and do it with a passion and heart that I could never find, they are my literal heroes! I now get to challenge myself daily, people care about what I say and think and so often I see the people we really should be listening to ignored - when you call them lazy, or imply they are stupid or didn’t work hard enough in their youth it enrages me. They are some of the most knowledgeable, and most importantly kind people I come across in my career.

its a crying shame that they aren’t paid enough to be self sufficient and rely on government top ups.

people that can work, mostly do. The stories that people tell are fuelled by the media and government to demonise the working class so they have a convenient scape goat.

if you’re earning enough to make a significant tax contribution it’s because somewhere along the line you’ve got lucky, you’ve been able to rely on other people’s kindness (and/or the taxpayer) or you’re privileged enough in the first place to be able to prioritise your career. Yes you also worked hard, but having the opportunity to work hard on something that benefits you is a PRIVILEGE. I can’t stress this any more.

i was able to double my salary and buy my first home this year and take my daughter on holiday. I saw my hard work pay off, my parents saw their kindness and hospitality pay off, and the taxpayers contributions have paid off too - they now have another qualified NHS worker in a field plagued with shortages. And guess what, I pay tax now!!! So all in all, a good investment for society.

Boomer55 · 28/08/2024 09:06

Tiredandmenopausal · 27/08/2024 21:25

I wonder how much of this £22 billion black hole is due to Labour giving pay rises to doctors and public service workers? Ridiculous thing to do if we're in debt as it will only make it worse.

Apparantly, it has cost £9 billion to settle the pay disputes they’ve recently settled.🙄

iwishihadknownmore · 28/08/2024 09:09

I wonder how much of this £22 billion black hole is due to Labour giving pay rises to doctors and public service workers? Ridiculous thing to do if we're in debt as it will only make it worse

But cutting NI by 4% costing over 30 billion (inc the cuts to business taxes) isn't ridiculous because it was done by the Tories.....

why didn't Hunt budget for the pay review body pay recommendations? he knew they were soon to be released as he set them up, together with the parameters to make their decisions.

Do you think Nurses and Teachers shouldn't have got a pay rise???

WanOvaryKenobi · 28/08/2024 09:11

Tiredalwaystired · 28/08/2024 08:57

If they are just bankrolled to get by by their family they aren’t adding anything. Their parents are.

They can still be a “drain” (horrible word) on resources if they use any council or state run resources at all.

Do you know a lot of people like this? I come across a lot in my field.

Privilege around how they got their wealth is a different argument.

You use the term "bankrolled", because they are. They have money in the back and spend it. They buy luxury goods, and expensive holidays.

They also invest in businesses, or hobbies and interests, and create jobs.

The difference is because they have individual wealth it does not come out of your pocket or mine. The only way they are taking money is by not having their investments taxed properly - which they should absolutely be.

Comparing that to someone who does not work, takes money off the state to fund all expenses, and is living in accommodation funded by the state is not the same thing. Unfair, sure. But not comparable.

iwishihadknownmore · 28/08/2024 09:15

WanOvaryKenobi · 28/08/2024 09:11

Do you know a lot of people like this? I come across a lot in my field.

Privilege around how they got their wealth is a different argument.

You use the term "bankrolled", because they are. They have money in the back and spend it. They buy luxury goods, and expensive holidays.

They also invest in businesses, or hobbies and interests, and create jobs.

The difference is because they have individual wealth it does not come out of your pocket or mine. The only way they are taking money is by not having their investments taxed properly - which they should absolutely be.

Comparing that to someone who does not work, takes money off the state to fund all expenses, and is living in accommodation funded by the state is not the same thing. Unfair, sure. But not comparable.

I'll ask again.

what would you do with these scroungers?

Boomer55 · 28/08/2024 09:15

TheMoment · 27/08/2024 22:03

PiP plus ESA is over £800 every 4 weeks (that wasn’t clear when I posted, sorry!) My point is that PIP and or DLA in addition/ in conjunction with UC and other benefits as outlined by other posters - can be a v. good amount to live off and far more than someone working full time on NMW.

We will have to disagree re: ease of PIP and DLA requirements - in my professional and personal experience it is very easy to claim which is, of course, good for those who are genuinely in need - but not everyone is altruistic or honest in society and many do lie and claim things they should not. It is naive to believe otherwise imo.

Not everyone on PIP is out of work, claiming ESA, or claiming UC. Many work.

There is a lot of proof required to be awarded PIP.🙄

Putting · 28/08/2024 09:16

Moomin2020 · 28/08/2024 09:05

In an effort to appeal to people on this threads better natures, here’s my super boring, not news worthy story of the time I’ve relied on tax payer support:

I’m 27, so I’ve grown up in a time when the welfare state has been stripped to its bare bones, university fees have tripled and house prices have risen astronomically. (Please don’t try and convince me it was harder before, everyone’s struggle is valid, but if you try to convince me it was hard to buy a house in the 80s/90s I’ll combust).

I struggled academically, and I struggled with decision making (not something I’m going to apologise for at the age of 16/17) so I left school and started working in healthcare assistant roles in the NHS for close to a decade - during this time I paid very little tax due to the low pay. I had my daughter and I realised I couldn’t give her the life I’d had growing up (stable home, holidays, magical Christmases etc.) if I remained on such a low wage. So I decided to go university and train for the career I’d spent the last 7/8 years assisting. BUT and crucially - this would’ve been impossible without the support of those close to me and the noble taxpayer.

my parents gave me a place to live for 3 years, without paying a penny - if this wasn’t available I’d have fallen at the first hurdle because it would’ve been simply impossible to be a student and pay eye watering rent prices.

the taxpayer subsidised 80% of my childcare during this time, again without this I wouldn’t have been able to attend university.

the taxpayer also subsidised my university education by the way of NHS grants - without this my family would’ve starved so again, it would’ve been impossible.

so yes, for 3 years I worked incredibly hard, I had a newborn baby, I breastfed, I did essays, exams, placements, and I worked part time. It was a GRAFT. But being able to work that hard and at the end of it double my salary overnight - with the opportunity for significant pay rises in the future was a PRIVILEGE. If you don’t have people backing you, it’s simply not possible.

I worked hard in my assistant roles too, for very little thanks, long hours and at times mind numbing - I love the people that love these jobs and do it with a passion and heart that I could never find, they are my literal heroes! I now get to challenge myself daily, people care about what I say and think and so often I see the people we really should be listening to ignored - when you call them lazy, or imply they are stupid or didn’t work hard enough in their youth it enrages me. They are some of the most knowledgeable, and most importantly kind people I come across in my career.

its a crying shame that they aren’t paid enough to be self sufficient and rely on government top ups.

people that can work, mostly do. The stories that people tell are fuelled by the media and government to demonise the working class so they have a convenient scape goat.

if you’re earning enough to make a significant tax contribution it’s because somewhere along the line you’ve got lucky, you’ve been able to rely on other people’s kindness (and/or the taxpayer) or you’re privileged enough in the first place to be able to prioritise your career. Yes you also worked hard, but having the opportunity to work hard on something that benefits you is a PRIVILEGE. I can’t stress this any more.

i was able to double my salary and buy my first home this year and take my daughter on holiday. I saw my hard work pay off, my parents saw their kindness and hospitality pay off, and the taxpayers contributions have paid off too - they now have another qualified NHS worker in a field plagued with shortages. And guess what, I pay tax now!!! So all in all, a good investment for society.

Well done for qualifying - an amazing achievement!

I have to ask, though, why the father of your children wasn’t supporting you during this time? No issue with taxpayer support for training etc, but surely the other parent should have been helping to pay for childcare etc.

Moomin2020 · 28/08/2024 09:19

Putting · 28/08/2024 09:16

Well done for qualifying - an amazing achievement!

I have to ask, though, why the father of your children wasn’t supporting you during this time? No issue with taxpayer support for training etc, but surely the other parent should have been helping to pay for childcare etc.

He was supporting us, but a single income when he to was just starting out in his career wasn’t going to get us very far. His wage was low enough at the time that we qualified for the 80% childcare subsidies. He’s also worked very hard in the last few years and we are now fortunate enough to be earning enough between us that for our second child we will be paying full whack for childcare. It’s give and take ☺️

Moomin2020 · 28/08/2024 09:20

Moomin2020 · 28/08/2024 09:19

He was supporting us, but a single income when he to was just starting out in his career wasn’t going to get us very far. His wage was low enough at the time that we qualified for the 80% childcare subsidies. He’s also worked very hard in the last few years and we are now fortunate enough to be earning enough between us that for our second child we will be paying full whack for childcare. It’s give and take ☺️

Or take and give in this instance!

Putting · 28/08/2024 09:22

Moomin2020 · 28/08/2024 09:19

He was supporting us, but a single income when he to was just starting out in his career wasn’t going to get us very far. His wage was low enough at the time that we qualified for the 80% childcare subsidies. He’s also worked very hard in the last few years and we are now fortunate enough to be earning enough between us that for our second child we will be paying full whack for childcare. It’s give and take ☺️

That’s fair enough then!

I get a bit fed up with hearing about feckless men buggering off and not contributing to the children they’ve helped to create - very glad for you that you seem to have found a good one 😊

EasternStandard · 28/08/2024 09:22

Tiredandmenopausal · 27/08/2024 21:25

I wonder how much of this £22 billion black hole is due to Labour giving pay rises to doctors and public service workers? Ridiculous thing to do if we're in debt as it will only make it worse.

Of course, it's the black hole they keep going on about. In the same way it was 'fully funded, fully costed' and 'no tax rises' pre GE

They had a pensioner on basic state pension talking about what they'll cut back on to get through winter. Over the last few years we've had extra energy support and they had WFA

Both gone and energy costs going up. I know Labour is very keen to gloss over this, and Starmer deflected on the question as much as possible, but they are people with very little who cannot strike, nor have the power of a union to get what they want.

SlugsWon · 28/08/2024 09:26

Moomin2020 · 28/08/2024 09:05

In an effort to appeal to people on this threads better natures, here’s my super boring, not news worthy story of the time I’ve relied on tax payer support:

I’m 27, so I’ve grown up in a time when the welfare state has been stripped to its bare bones, university fees have tripled and house prices have risen astronomically. (Please don’t try and convince me it was harder before, everyone’s struggle is valid, but if you try to convince me it was hard to buy a house in the 80s/90s I’ll combust).

I struggled academically, and I struggled with decision making (not something I’m going to apologise for at the age of 16/17) so I left school and started working in healthcare assistant roles in the NHS for close to a decade - during this time I paid very little tax due to the low pay. I had my daughter and I realised I couldn’t give her the life I’d had growing up (stable home, holidays, magical Christmases etc.) if I remained on such a low wage. So I decided to go university and train for the career I’d spent the last 7/8 years assisting. BUT and crucially - this would’ve been impossible without the support of those close to me and the noble taxpayer.

my parents gave me a place to live for 3 years, without paying a penny - if this wasn’t available I’d have fallen at the first hurdle because it would’ve been simply impossible to be a student and pay eye watering rent prices.

the taxpayer subsidised 80% of my childcare during this time, again without this I wouldn’t have been able to attend university.

the taxpayer also subsidised my university education by the way of NHS grants - without this my family would’ve starved so again, it would’ve been impossible.

so yes, for 3 years I worked incredibly hard, I had a newborn baby, I breastfed, I did essays, exams, placements, and I worked part time. It was a GRAFT. But being able to work that hard and at the end of it double my salary overnight - with the opportunity for significant pay rises in the future was a PRIVILEGE. If you don’t have people backing you, it’s simply not possible.

I worked hard in my assistant roles too, for very little thanks, long hours and at times mind numbing - I love the people that love these jobs and do it with a passion and heart that I could never find, they are my literal heroes! I now get to challenge myself daily, people care about what I say and think and so often I see the people we really should be listening to ignored - when you call them lazy, or imply they are stupid or didn’t work hard enough in their youth it enrages me. They are some of the most knowledgeable, and most importantly kind people I come across in my career.

its a crying shame that they aren’t paid enough to be self sufficient and rely on government top ups.

people that can work, mostly do. The stories that people tell are fuelled by the media and government to demonise the working class so they have a convenient scape goat.

if you’re earning enough to make a significant tax contribution it’s because somewhere along the line you’ve got lucky, you’ve been able to rely on other people’s kindness (and/or the taxpayer) or you’re privileged enough in the first place to be able to prioritise your career. Yes you also worked hard, but having the opportunity to work hard on something that benefits you is a PRIVILEGE. I can’t stress this any more.

i was able to double my salary and buy my first home this year and take my daughter on holiday. I saw my hard work pay off, my parents saw their kindness and hospitality pay off, and the taxpayers contributions have paid off too - they now have another qualified NHS worker in a field plagued with shortages. And guess what, I pay tax now!!! So all in all, a good investment for society.

So well said, thank you for the voice of reason on a snarky, nasty thread. Well done for all your achieved, your parents and your daughter should all be very proud!

PrincessRhaenys · 28/08/2024 09:28

Op, I get that you won't feel as rich as some posters think you are. But in reality you have the luxury of choice that many others just don't have. You might not like your choices (smaller house/different area/I bet you could cut outgoings if really pushed/different job with your presumably pretty employable skill set/future planning in a way that others can't), but they are choices. I have no opinion on what choices you make, they are yours and it sounds like you are doing ok. It really doesn't look like actual income tax will be affected, but the money has to come from somewhere, things can't stay as they are we need to start to improve things for everyone somehow.

CGT will almost certainly rise, probably inheritance tax too, and and hopefully the rest of the package announced will be as balanced and effective as possible. Yes, some people will pay more for that than they do now, but what's the alternative really.

WanOvaryKenobi · 28/08/2024 09:33

iwishihadknownmore · 28/08/2024 09:15

I'll ask again.

what would you do with these scroungers?

I don't consider independently wealthy people scroungers, and I have laid out my arguments why.

As for the perennially unemployed, here be my manifesto:
Higher wages across the board, starting with minimum wage and lower band/tier civil service and public sector roles
An investment back into manufacturing and trades to provide unskilled jobs and make us less reliant on global trade/at the mercy of international war
A greater investment in education, transport, and health
Building more schemes of flats with one or two bedrooms, looking at current housing association homes and redistributing larger homes from single occupancy to family occupancy
Making council houses not a home for life but temporary and means tested
Make it impossible - not just hard I mean actually physically impossible - to choose to not work if you are capable.
Make being on the dole actually feel like a job, maybe even get them to pick litter or become childminders

In the meantime we can decide as a society what we think is socially acceptable, and I would like to see the type of lifestyle where people choose to not work despite being able to and also expect to have their families funded by the state to be seen as the outrageous entitlement it is.

iwishihadknownmore · 28/08/2024 09:33

EasternStandard · 28/08/2024 09:22

Of course, it's the black hole they keep going on about. In the same way it was 'fully funded, fully costed' and 'no tax rises' pre GE

They had a pensioner on basic state pension talking about what they'll cut back on to get through winter. Over the last few years we've had extra energy support and they had WFA

Both gone and energy costs going up. I know Labour is very keen to gloss over this, and Starmer deflected on the question as much as possible, but they are people with very little who cannot strike, nor have the power of a union to get what they want.

The unfunded NI cuts and not having a budget for the pay review body recommendations is why we have a "Black hole".

Or do you think the answer to staff shortages in the NHS and in schools is not to give them a pay rise?

Pensioners have had years of Triple Lock pension rises, we can't afford this, well off pensioners cannot just keep taking tax payer money.

WFA had to go BUT there does need to be a taper beyond Pension Credits, i'd fund this by applying NI to higher rate tax pensioners.

Therightcoffee · 28/08/2024 09:37

Honestly, I’d like some acknowledgement that higher rate tax payers have been hit hard since 2010 already, that we have been paying more and more for years now. Paul Johnson says average rate tax payers have lowest taxes in 50 years.

And, boxing themselves in by not raising direct taxes leaves them with options that could have negative economic consequences.

and…I really hope they leave pension contributions tax ‘relief’ alone precisely because there is such a huge difference in employer contributions between public and private.

iwishihadknownmore · 28/08/2024 09:41

Higher wages across the board, starting with minimum wage and lower band/tier civil service and public sector roles

This would be hugely expensive, a 5% pay rise to just teachers and nurses is costing 9 billion..... and according to many "unaffordable"

Increasing NMW removes differentials, keep raising NMW and soon we'll all be on it !

Make it impossible - not just hard I mean actually physically impossible - to choose to not work if you are capable

How? easy to say, would you put them in prison?

Make being on the dole actually feel like a job, maybe even get them to pick litter or become childminders

Who would look after children whilst they do this?

Look i don't disagree with you in principal but in practice, its not possible.

If we had more council housing, we'd pay out far less in benefits and people would have more secure housing too.

We need to look at why peoples attitudes have changed, when i was younger, being a single mum unemployed or just being unemployed was not something to be proud about, now people boast about how much they get.

EasternStandard · 28/08/2024 09:42

Therightcoffee · 28/08/2024 09:37

Honestly, I’d like some acknowledgement that higher rate tax payers have been hit hard since 2010 already, that we have been paying more and more for years now. Paul Johnson says average rate tax payers have lowest taxes in 50 years.

And, boxing themselves in by not raising direct taxes leaves them with options that could have negative economic consequences.

and…I really hope they leave pension contributions tax ‘relief’ alone precisely because there is such a huge difference in employer contributions between public and private.

Someone on the op's salary is paying a lot and misses out on help that makes things like nursery extortionate

I don't think they are in the bracket that can keep being hit to fund services

I have no problem with the whole range of jobs people choose to do whether it's Tesco or not, but I'd say politicians can't keep going for easy pickings PAYE on op's salary range

Bontonbonbon · 28/08/2024 09:43

@iwishihadknownmore You are totally right. Both my parents are very wealthy and do no need the pension increase or the winter fuel allowance. Dad spends his on taking us all out for nice dinners. He admits he doesn’t need it. Both he and I would much rather it went to the NHS.

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