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When someone is charged with something does it mean they're guilty?

149 replies

ElTortilla · 22/08/2024 17:02

A good friend of mine was charged with something serious about 20 years ago. I found this out by goggling his name as he's very well known in his field and I wanted to see some information on his career.

Does being charged mean he was guilty? If so, it could change the friendship forever.

OP posts:
GustyFinknottle · 22/08/2024 17:36

ElTortilla · 22/08/2024 17:15

Please read my OP as to why I was googling his name.

Are you sure you've got the right person? I have an unusual surname but if you google both my names you'll find about 20 women all with the exact same name. Two of them are a similar age and from the region I'm from and I was once approached by someone who'd muddled me up with one of the others when trying to trace their ancestry.

Without meaning to be rude, you seem young and not very well informed. Are you sure you have the right person — particularly if he has a common sort of name?

Delphiniumandlupins · 22/08/2024 17:41

GustyFinknottle · 22/08/2024 17:36

Are you sure you've got the right person? I have an unusual surname but if you google both my names you'll find about 20 women all with the exact same name. Two of them are a similar age and from the region I'm from and I was once approached by someone who'd muddled me up with one of the others when trying to trace their ancestry.

Without meaning to be rude, you seem young and not very well informed. Are you sure you have the right person — particularly if he has a common sort of name?

Good point.

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:45

BananaSpanner · 22/08/2024 17:21

Er what? There will often be loads of further enquiries to conduct post charge but police don’t charge people to get permission to get do more intrusive enquiries. Where do people get these ideas?

From the Police guidance. The Prosecutor at CPS job is to note any evidentiary gaps or weaknesses and instruct the police to go and investigate further. This can mean things like medical evidence which is not normally releasable without a court order saying it is in public interest- usually done by CPS in conjunction with deciding to charge.

Prosecutor’s assessment
4.22 In making charging decisions, prosecutors will assess the evidential material and other information provided by the police in accordance with this Guidance.
4.23 When assessing the evidence, and deciding whether there is sufficient evidence to prosecute in accordance with the Code, prosecutors (or police decision makers in police charged cases) must consider whether there is any other material or information which might affect this decision, by either strengthening the prosecution case or by undermining it.36
4.24 Specific consideration should be given to the existence and potential impact of any other material or information, not immediately available, that is:

  • in police possession and has been examined (whether scheduled or not);
  • in police possession but has not yet been examined;
  • not in police possession but may be obtained through further investigation.
4.25 Prosecutors will be proactive in identifying and, where possible, seeking to rectify evidential weaknesses, and in bringing to an early conclusion those cases that cannot be strengthened by further investigation, or where the public interest clearly does not require a prosecution.”
GustyFinknottle · 22/08/2024 17:46

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:18

Not always. The police often charge a suspect so they can then get legal permission to do more intrusive evidence hunting.

Many cases never make it past the charged stage, so tons of people have charges dropped well before there is any pretrial hearing to determine whether enough evidence for a trial.

This. Police charge people for a variety of reasons and just because charges are dropped doesn't mean that the person was guilty but they couldn't find enough evidence.

I find this 'no smoke without fire' and 'they wouldn't have charged him if they didn't think he was guilty' attitude very concerning. Sometimes that may be right, but a lot of times the police got it wrong or more evidence crops up to prove that the charged person wasn't involved/ guilty.

Moil89 · 22/08/2024 17:47

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:35

1 in 10 charged suspects for violent crimes are never prosecuted, because there isn’t enough evidence for a prosecution decision.

The charging decision is not the same as a prosecution decision.

Given the abysmal conviction rates, it is incorrect to say that CPS only charge when they think they will get a conviction as pp have said.

This is completely inaccurate. A charging decision is the same as a "prosecution decision". Once charges are authorised, the prosecution has begun.

The CPS authorise charges when the relevant legal test is met - i.e. 1) that there is sufficient evidence to believe there is a realistic prospect of conviction and 2) that it is in the public interest to charge. See the Code for Crown Prosecutors for further information. This is referred to as the Full Code Test. There is also the Threshold Test but that is probably going on a bit for the purposes of this thread.

Of course, many cases are dropped after a charging decision, for a litany of reasons including, for example, new evidence or information coming to light or the withdrawal of key witnesses.

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:48

GustyFinknottle · 22/08/2024 17:46

This. Police charge people for a variety of reasons and just because charges are dropped doesn't mean that the person was guilty but they couldn't find enough evidence.

I find this 'no smoke without fire' and 'they wouldn't have charged him if they didn't think he was guilty' attitude very concerning. Sometimes that may be right, but a lot of times the police got it wrong or more evidence crops up to prove that the charged person wasn't involved/ guilty.

Yes, or post charging, found evidence that undermined the case (proved can’t be guilty) on the post charge investigations,
“must consider whether there is any other material or information which might affect this decision, by either strengthening the prosecution case or by undermining it.”

pizzaHeart · 22/08/2024 17:49

WakingUpInBlood · 22/08/2024 17:09

No. Being charged means that there was enough evidence to justify potentially putting him through trial. It is a trial which determines if someone is guilty, not being charged. Sometimes there is sufficient evidence to charge someone but it’s not enough to convict, or there is contradictory evidence used in the person’s defence so they are found not guilty.

You also get cases where someone is charged and the charges are later dropped, either because new evidence comes to light which exonerates them, or there is insufficient evidence to proceed, or it’s not in the public interest to prosecute.

Someone having been charged but not convicted or acquitted doesn’t really tell you much. Innocent and guilty people can be charged and then have the charges dropped.

This^

Loopytiles · 22/08/2024 17:49

Far, far more likely to have committed the crime than not, especially if it was a sex offence, for which few are not brought to court and convicted.

BrendaSmall · 22/08/2024 17:49

ElTortilla · 22/08/2024 17:02

A good friend of mine was charged with something serious about 20 years ago. I found this out by goggling his name as he's very well known in his field and I wanted to see some information on his career.

Does being charged mean he was guilty? If so, it could change the friendship forever.

Depends what the crime is would determine if I had anymore to do with him!

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:50

Moil89 · 22/08/2024 17:47

This is completely inaccurate. A charging decision is the same as a "prosecution decision". Once charges are authorised, the prosecution has begun.

The CPS authorise charges when the relevant legal test is met - i.e. 1) that there is sufficient evidence to believe there is a realistic prospect of conviction and 2) that it is in the public interest to charge. See the Code for Crown Prosecutors for further information. This is referred to as the Full Code Test. There is also the Threshold Test but that is probably going on a bit for the purposes of this thread.

Of course, many cases are dropped after a charging decision, for a litany of reasons including, for example, new evidence or information coming to light or the withdrawal of key witnesses.

No, it really isn’t the same decision.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/directors-guidance-charging-sixth-edition-december-2020-incorporating-national-file

Moil89 · 22/08/2024 17:50

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:45

From the Police guidance. The Prosecutor at CPS job is to note any evidentiary gaps or weaknesses and instruct the police to go and investigate further. This can mean things like medical evidence which is not normally releasable without a court order saying it is in public interest- usually done by CPS in conjunction with deciding to charge.

Prosecutor’s assessment
4.22 In making charging decisions, prosecutors will assess the evidential material and other information provided by the police in accordance with this Guidance.
4.23 When assessing the evidence, and deciding whether there is sufficient evidence to prosecute in accordance with the Code, prosecutors (or police decision makers in police charged cases) must consider whether there is any other material or information which might affect this decision, by either strengthening the prosecution case or by undermining it.36
4.24 Specific consideration should be given to the existence and potential impact of any other material or information, not immediately available, that is:

  • in police possession and has been examined (whether scheduled or not);
  • in police possession but has not yet been examined;
  • not in police possession but may be obtained through further investigation.
4.25 Prosecutors will be proactive in identifying and, where possible, seeking to rectify evidential weaknesses, and in bringing to an early conclusion those cases that cannot be strengthened by further investigation, or where the public interest clearly does not require a prosecution.”

I think you're confusing/conflating separate issues. As in my previous post, charges are only authorised if the relevant legal test is met. Charges cannot be authorised simply to create the opportunity for further evidence gathering. However, the police can and often do request advice from the CPS as to further lines of enquiry/evidence gathering with a view towards obtaining sufficient evidence for charges to eventually be authorised.

Moil89 · 22/08/2024 17:51

It literally is. I think you've misunderstood or misread the information on the link.

Fingeronthebutton · 22/08/2024 17:52

A friend of mine was charged with murder. Spent 5 years in prison before his lawyer could prove he didn’t do it.

GustyFinknottle · 22/08/2024 17:54

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:48

Yes, or post charging, found evidence that undermined the case (proved can’t be guilty) on the post charge investigations,
“must consider whether there is any other material or information which might affect this decision, by either strengthening the prosecution case or by undermining it.”

Yup. Once worked for a charity where the finance director was charged with embezzlement: it looked like and open and shut case. Turned out on closer analysis that it was actually a lowly finance worker who'd managed to cook the books very creatively and had even managed to opened a bank account in the finance director's name, into which they'd paid the salaries of two fictional part-time members of staff for years.

Hoardasurass · 22/08/2024 17:54

It depends if it was a sexual assault/rape or domestic violence then he's probably guilty but got away with it (I say this due to the terrible conviction rates) anything else I'd give him the benefit of doubt

dobblevit · 22/08/2024 17:55

ElTortilla · 22/08/2024 17:02

A good friend of mine was charged with something serious about 20 years ago. I found this out by goggling his name as he's very well known in his field and I wanted to see some information on his career.

Does being charged mean he was guilty? If so, it could change the friendship forever.

No. It doesn't mean they didn't do it either though

BananaSpanner · 22/08/2024 17:56

LoremIpsumCici · 22/08/2024 17:45

From the Police guidance. The Prosecutor at CPS job is to note any evidentiary gaps or weaknesses and instruct the police to go and investigate further. This can mean things like medical evidence which is not normally releasable without a court order saying it is in public interest- usually done by CPS in conjunction with deciding to charge.

Prosecutor’s assessment
4.22 In making charging decisions, prosecutors will assess the evidential material and other information provided by the police in accordance with this Guidance.
4.23 When assessing the evidence, and deciding whether there is sufficient evidence to prosecute in accordance with the Code, prosecutors (or police decision makers in police charged cases) must consider whether there is any other material or information which might affect this decision, by either strengthening the prosecution case or by undermining it.36
4.24 Specific consideration should be given to the existence and potential impact of any other material or information, not immediately available, that is:

  • in police possession and has been examined (whether scheduled or not);
  • in police possession but has not yet been examined;
  • not in police possession but may be obtained through further investigation.
4.25 Prosecutors will be proactive in identifying and, where possible, seeking to rectify evidential weaknesses, and in bringing to an early conclusion those cases that cannot be strengthened by further investigation, or where the public interest clearly does not require a prosecution.”

As I said, there will often be post charge enquiries and an action plan by CPS (particularly in threshold cases) but I promise you they don’t charge solely to give police the power to do those enquiries. In the example given above, if there wasn’t already sufficient evidence to charge and they needed the medical evidence police would get the court order.

LlynTegid · 22/08/2024 17:58

I'd be wary if the charge was for violent or sexual offences, or any form of domestic abuse. Whilst they are not guilty in law, that does not mean they did not commit an offence.

JohnTheRevelator · 22/08/2024 17:59

No,it's when you're convicted at a trial that you are guilty.

Glowingreviews · 22/08/2024 17:59

ElTortilla · 22/08/2024 17:07

See this is what I worry about.

The threshold for charging is so high I’d be thinking along the lines that he’s guilty.

Divebar2021 · 22/08/2024 18:00

The charging decision is not the same as a prosecution decision

What does this mean @LoremIpsumCici.
The vast majority of offences are referred to the CPS for a charging decision. I also don’t know what you mean when you say conviction rates are poor. Conviction rates average at around 82% for crimes generally. They are not poor exactly because they consider the likelihood of a conviction as part of the decision making.( along with public interest ).

HotCrossBunplease · 22/08/2024 18:01

Did he disappear for a long holiday or “time working abroad” soon afterwards?

Divebar2021 · 22/08/2024 18:02

A great deal of domestic related offences don’t proceed at trial because the victims withdraw their support. This is done post charge so all the work will be done to prepare cases for trial only for them to not go ahead on the day.

Allthehorsesintheworld · 22/08/2024 18:03

Have you tried variously worded Google searches.
Full name town or County court report
Full name town or County trial
Full name town conviction. And so on.

If nothing shows then either found innocent or didn’t go to trial. If you find no evidence of a trial and conviction I’d be careful about talking to anyone in case it’s considered slanderous.

Threewheeler1 · 22/08/2024 18:04

Hi OP, is this something you could speak to the person in question about or do you fear their reaction?
If you are worried about how they might react then maybe your instincts are telling you something.
Previous PP suggested an application via Claire's Law. I think that's wise.
Please prioritise your own safety x

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