To think this is why the high street is failing?

[MiamiWindMachine]

I’m off on holiday in a couple of days, so thought I’d go up to the big shopping centre for a couple of last minute things.

In the massive H&M, all the tills bar one had been converted to self-service. The ones on the floor I was on were ALL closed. I went down to the lower floor and there was a huge queue, because no one could work out the machines. There was a step to remove security tags, and people couldn’t work out whether this was only for those plastic tags or if there was some flag on the barcodes for lower value items. Someone else was trying to process a return via these tills. When a member of staff eventually appeared, she confirmed returns could only be processed at a manned till. The customer pointed out that there were no manned tills. The staff member had no idea who to ask about it, then disappeared to find someone, so the queue was getting even longer.

I was on the way out about 15 minutes before closing time and went past M&S. I thought “I wonder if the Bureau de Change is still open” and went to check. The woman saw me approach and had a pained look on her face, saying “Arrgghh, I’ve just cashed uuuppp!” I was a bit taken aback, but said “Oh well, never mind. What time do you close, for future reference?” She then reluctantly admitted that she was supposed to be open until 8, but said “But I do start cashing up at around 7.30”. I was about to ask why when she started saying, “It’s fine; I’ll do it, I’ll do it”, like she was doing me a massive favour. I tried to pay on Revolut and she said “We can’t take those cards!”, as if it was somehow obvious. I asked about Apple Pay and she said, “No, it has to be a proper bank card or credit card”. I therefore went to pay with my credit card and she said, “You do know we have to charge a fee for these, don’t you?” I said I didn’t have a choice given she’d rejected two other payment methods.

I then went down to foods to grab a ready meal and some wine. I went to a manned till as I had alcohol and the girl said, “Oh, could you go to the self-service? It’s just that I’m closing this one”. I asked about the alcohol and she said, “I can approve that from here; it’s just that it’s easier for me”.

I feel like we’re constantly told in the media “Use it or lose it” re: the high street; how sad it would be if we lost the personal touch. From what I could see yesterday, one store has done everything possible to eliminate personal interaction, while in the other, the staff are more bothered about their convenience than the customers’. Is it any wonder that people would rather click a couple of buttons to get something delivered?

But that's not what's happened. People have given up faffing around with "Unknown item detected in basket, please wait for assistance," and so on and just order online, and then the shops say, "Oh, come and use your high street, the shops are empty and we can't survive."

If I want to learn to use new technology I'll take a course. I didn't go to the shops for an IT lesson.

The Chinese students in my city keep the city centre going.

They are the ones with the money, the ones that use the market to but fresh produce instead of one of the chains. They buy from the pricey independents .

I don't know how non university towns cope .

This thread is giving me many trips down memory lane! I used to love Hyper Hyper. Still have a couple of tops from there (bit musty now, but can’t bring myself to throw them). And Kensington Market across the road

YANBU

I left Tesco because no one came when the self service machine messed up. I just left all my items because I was fed up.

I think you're missing a key point - it's much much cheaper and better for Sainsburys or whatever for you to do your shopping online. They can store the bulk of their items in cheaper, out of the way places and not in expensive towns. They don't need to worry about the same "user experience" of a store - ie good flooring and lighting and nicely labelled shelving etc. They don't have to have loads of employees. They can control stock better - eg, so many of us will actively look for the longest use-by date on milk and leave those with only 3 or 4 days behind. Some of that gets wasted. They don't have that problem online - their online packers are taking the stuff that is closest to use by first. Every time. etc etc etc.

There are some benefits to them if you shop in person such as spontaneous shopping etc - but even that is being cleverly managed online. And even more importantly, they can adapt what they offer you at the checkout online so that you a) are more likely to buy because it's the kind of stuff you like and b) they can manage their stock better by showing you discounts on things that are close to expiy or whatever.

So no, the shops don't want you to come in. They provide the service because they have a large enough customer base who wants/needs it and because it's helpful to their overall brand and marketing. But it's not something they do because they WANT you to shop there.

We also shouldn't forget that town centres dominated by retail was a very short term thing. People used to live in town centres and there were all kinds of workplace in the town centre, such as breweries, printworks, factories, car garages, warehouses, cinemas/theatres, professional offices, etc., as well as a huge range of shops, big and small, independent and chains. It was the 70s and 80s when retail took over, particularly chain stores moved in which forced out the smaller independents. At the same time "non retail" moved out to industrial estates etc., and with the closure of small independent shops, the "living" accommodation above got abandoned as the ground floor shops were knocked together for the bigger chains.

Come the 90s and 00s, "High St" retail suffered by the out of town supermarkets, retail parks, shopping mall, etc.

Then into the 10's and 20's, a further kick in the teeth was online shopping.

It's all evolution. But the High Street of 20 years ago was absolutely nothing like the High Street of 40 years ago. Big chains killed off smaller independents and now the internet and big supermarkets are killing off those chains. As I say, it's evolution. Town centres need to get back to being where people can live and work, and harking back to the days of retail dominance isn't the answer. As a few people have said, Universities are breathing new life into lots of town centres, mainly because the students live in them rather than on out of town housing estates so are within easy walking distance of bars, cafes, and other amenities.

Yes, @taxguru is right. It's like when people complain about lack of butcher, green grocer etc.... My dad was talking about this the other day. He grew up in London during and after the war. His point was that his mum had to stop and do the shopping for the night on the way home from work because they didn't have a large kitchen and they certainly didn't have refrigeration. So the local butcher and baker and all the rest of it was needed and it was all walkable - between the bus stop and home and with one bag of shopping for one night's food. But his mother, who was a keen cook but also had a full time job, was thrilled when she could buy a fridge and abandon daily shopping.

I suppose if you’re outside of a city etc, somewhere really rural, no phone signal etc (some remote parts of Sicily apparently) then yeah, suppose so. Fair point

it’s the bloody shrapnel coins that end up being such a nuisance

I think we'll see the end of small coins within the next few years. There's no need for them really anymore. I'd imagine we're pretty close to only needing the 50p and £1 coin as there's not much denominated in less than 50p these days. With another few years of inflation, we could be close to things being in multiples of £1 as minimum. Maybe in a decade's time, all we'd "need" would be £1 coins. All the smaller coins can be withdrawn, maybe the 1p, 2p and 5p could be withdrawn now with everything rounded to 10p. And then 10p and 20p withdrawn in say 5 years time with everything rounded to 50p and so on.

Wouldn't surprise me if all coins were withdrawn within 20 years or so, with the £5 note being the minimum currency denomination for cash transactions.

I remember Hyper - used to get my DMs from there and then pop down the road to the cinema! Memories 😁

Where I live it's not just the high street that is dying out it's the night life too. I have sons in their late 20s who rarely go out and when they do it's never that busy and the night clubs are shutting everywhere. Hospitality seems to be suffering too.
I agree op that finding anyone to actually serve you anymore is difficult too

There'll be fewer and fewer places without a mobile signal as time passes. The analogue phone network is being shut down over the next few years, so all phones will have to be digital/internet. That opens up the way for mobile signals in places where there isn't currently a mobile internet signal. Having said that, the mobile network is also being expanded and improved with 5g etc. Within a few years, there won't be anywhere that can't get the internet, not even remote places. For the very few most remotest of places, there'll be satellite such as Starlink. People living/working will need the internet wherever they live and work, so provision will have to be made for them, for residential and business premises. Not having access to the internet won't be an option.

Also not many people had cars

I agree with this. To me, the self-checkouts are such an infuriating experience I avoid them like the plague.

@IdLikeToBeAFraser There is a reason that ALDI is opening new stores. They have self checkout, but also cashiers.

And as I have said before on here, I see more independents than ever being cash only, especially restaurants. I don't like chains, so this suits me.

My Tesco and Sainsbury's online shop came from the stores five miles down the road not a warehouse, Waitrose and Asda don't generally use warehouses either.

If there is no demand for city-center living in your particular town, then it is fine not to build any flats in your particular town. Your town’s residents can stick exclusively to suburban housing if they want, as we live in a democracy. The trade-off that your town will probably have to accept, however, is that your town center will probably be very quiet with a lot of boarded-up buildings. Your choice!

My neighbour used to be a picker at Sainsbury's just down the road. I see them picking the home delivery orders when I'm in the shop. It definitely comes from the local store.

Most didn't need them because they lived close to where they shopped and worked when everything was based around town centres.

To an extent, the "need" for cars has been a result of the fragmentation of how we live, with housing estates, retail parks, industrial estates, all in different areas of the town or outside the town.

Improving buses doesn't solve the problem because buses will never be as convenient as cars.

Much as I hate to admit it, but the idea of "15 minute cities" has a lot of merit in attempting to get homes, shops, businesses and other amenities closer together, so that walking and cycling becomes more viable, thus reducing the need for both cars and public transport.

@GreenTeaLikesMe As I have already said we have lots and lots of city centre apartments already. Its only students and young people who like partying who like living in them. There is no car parking, and it is noisy with clubs, pubs and restaurants doing bottomless brunches.

It's carrying the groceries as well

We are fortunate that we can walk to shops without driving but are limited to what we can carry

Yea I know I could have a wheely trolley😂

I agree. Maybe in London its in a warehouse?

There are shops now realising that self service is losing them business and that there are plenty of people who prefer to shop and interact with salespeople.

I absolutely hate being an unpaid worker in a shop, having to scan my own shopping or use a self service till. Self service hasn't brought prices down, it's just made shopping worse for customers and put people out of work.

I agree, lack of residential parking is a major problem for town centre living. That's why Uni students are an ideal target for town centre residential conversions as they're less likely to have cars.

In my nearby city, which has a huge university compared to the size of the city, it's a hot topic of conversation on the Uni student social media chats from a minority of students choosing city centre accommodation but needing somewhere to park their car, thus asking which accommodation blocks either have their own parking or are near enough to walk to either cheaper car parks or on street unlimited parking. One block in particular is very popular with students owning cars as it's right on the edge of the city centre, wrong end of town (opposite end to the Uni), but it has lots of free unlimited off street parking just 5 minutes away - the free and easy parking is it's main marketing attraction. Apparently very few students without cars choose it as it's quite a walk from the city centre and bus station, so unpopular for those without cars, but ideal for those with cars.

When councils are planning the regeneration of town centres, they need to seriously plan for prospective future residents of flats etc who need cars - no sane person is going to buy/rent a town centre flat if they're going to be screwed by having to pay for parking in expensive council town centre car parks, and besides that, lots of council car parks are closed and barriered off at night, so aren't suitable for people living nearby anyway. Councils would need to make provision for residential car ownership.

I agree, but councils won't. Most are committed to making it harder to have cars.