How many sick days are you allowed to take?

[Abigail47]

In my last job, they didn't really care that much about sick leave. They would let people take up to about two weeks uncertified sick leave, and if you were certified for sick leave, you could take months of sick leave. They also didn't do return to work meetings for sick periods of less that five days.

I only took about four days sick leave in a year in that last job.

I started a new job seven months ago and I'm in shock.

I've taken four days sick leave in the whole seven month period. Two different periods of two days. I was sick. They were uncertified (as I had moved to a new area and hadn't registered with a local doctor in time) and I didn't get paid.

After each period I was called into an office with a manager and made to do a return to work meeting.
I was told in each meeting that too much sick leave can leave to contract termination.

My colleague just took five days certified sick leave, and on her return they said the same to her, that too much sick leave can lead to contract termination.

Aibu to think that four days sick leave in a whole year is not a lot.

Like we are going to get sick . Everyone does.
In one of my sick periods I totally lost my voice with a chest infection. I couldn't speak at all and I have a customer facing role.

What is sick leave like in your organisation?

You absolutely won't get much empathy as a teacher if you are ill. You will pick up illnesses from the children and penalised for being ill. The odd headteacher here and there might be understanding, but as a general rule, the target is not to get ill or you will end up having a sickness meeting.

If I had 2 periods of sickness in the first 7 months of a job,it would worry me and I'd make every effort to struggle in regardless of sickness for quite some time.
My employers are really good about sickness and tend to take employees word for it. No one really takes the piss as I think we're all respectful of the fact that we are treated as grown ups.
In dh's work 3 periods of sickness in a set time period can mean termination of contract, so there is much more sickness, as for every period of sickness people take longer ( either making sure they're 100% so unlikely to go off again, or just taking the piss)
I would dislike working in an environment where I'm 'punished' for being sick as much as I'd dislike having to cover for others work all the time because of frequent absences for mild illnesses.
Unfortunately it seems that the piss takers and slackers do have some responsibility for backing employers into a position where they have to set expectations.
I wish there was more balance generally. Slackers annoy me, but so do people who drag themselves in when they are clearly contagious with a nasty lurgy.

So because you're lucky enough to be a robust family (as are we, for the record), you can't imagine a world where someone may be sick for four days?

When you had your two days sick (I'm sorry by the way, been through it, wouldn't wish it on anyone), at some point you had been off for two days in three and a half months, which will be the same position as OP's four in seven.

'@PianPianPiano
But the return to work interviews help other people rather than specifically you and your circumstances.'

I am sharing the point of view of someone who lives with a long term health condition.

For many people with disabilities/health condition these one size fits all rules, like the use of the Bradford Sickness Score, don't work and in fact can actively discriminate against us.

My situation is likely to apply to many other employees.

Too many employers really don't care about their staff welfare and back to work interviews are used as a way to threaten people with termination if they are sick, rather than support them and look for adjustments to help them come back and stay in employment.

I have seen too many people with mental health issues for example being driven out of jobs by employers.

We also are supposed to work longer and have an ageing population so this is another factor to take into account when dealing with staff sickness.

You can't apply the same blanket rule to a 25 year old employee than to a 55 year old disabled person for example.

There is also something else to consider: some workplaces have high sickness levels because of the way they operate with impossible workload and toxic environments that cause burn outs. In this case the employer is actively causing the problem. Common in teaching, healthcare...

Of course I can imagine a world where people are sick. But the OP is stating that she feels this is a normal amount of time because everybody gets sick! As we can see by the answers in here it isn’t normal at all and most people think it’s a lot. If she has 4 days off every 7 months then that is excessive and yes if I was her employer I’d be extremely concerned . Me having 2 days off in 12 years is nit compatible. I’d been there for 10 years at that point.

If by "blanket" policies you mean 'standard policy' then it's not in the least bit mad, unless you relish spending time defending yourself in employment tribunals.

As soon as you start applying rules/disciplinary matters to individuals differently, you're opening yourself up to trouble.

That's why organisations use standard policies - there's no issues with "she did the same thing and wasn't fired, so I shouldn't have been" scenarios.

You may well be ok having a small workforce but it only needs one bad egg to upset that.

The world is different these days though. There's things like COVID to consider. A lot of places won't allow you on site if you're positive for it (some will now, but the likelihood is that then more will be off with it), but it still counts as sick leave.

My DH had to have a week off last month because, despite feeling ok after an awful weekend with it, he has to have tested negative for two consecutive days before he's allowed on site. He was positive Monday to Wednesday, but negative Thursday & Friday, but couldn't go back til the Monday. Yet that counts as 5 days sick.

On the other hand, I can WFH. So in those circumstances (which was the following week for me), I wasn't allowed in the office but didn't have to take sick leave. But if I were customer facing, or site based, I tested positive for 5 days, so potentially, depending on when my first negative had been, it could have been 6 days out, despite being well enough to work.

But most ways of measuring sick levels are supposed to be used to trigger a conversation, not an automatic dismissal.

If you apply the same to everyone, you actually do open yourself up to issues. Because if someone has had three instances of sick due to a broken bone, a miscarriage and an emergency operation, whereas someone else has had three Mondays because they feel awful after heavy weekends, but your policy states you have to dismiss them after three, the first one has quite a lot of reason to state that's unfair.

It sounds like people work for some terrible employers here. I've never had a back to work meeting as you call it and I've definitely been sick or taken sick leave. I didn't even know this was a thing in the UK. If your 7 month period is during a time when there is something going around or a time when people tend to get more sick, I personally don't think 4 days is a lot. I routinely wake up to see messages from people on our team chat saying "don't feel well gonna take a few days off" and nobody bats an eye. Maybe you need to find a better employer?

That's really harsh.

That's just not true. There is nothing to say you can't dismiss someone because they're genuinely sick with one illness/injury but not someone with another.

It's perfectly allowable to fire someone who breaks their leg and is therefore off work, if they're already on a final written warning for absence. It is the fact they're off sick again that is the trigger, not the specific type of sickness.

An employer is entitled to expect its employees to attend work and to take action when they don't - it's not that complicated (outwith specific circumstances which may offer the employee protection).

To be clear, I'm not in favour of people being sacked left, right and centre for being off sick, but a lot of what's posted on MN about this is wrong. Look at the number of times people say "get a sick note" as if it's some sort of trump card.

If an employer wants to retain their good employees though, they absolutely won't fire them for unavoidable periods of sickness.

I had 6 weeks off with a broken bone, mainly because work couldn't guarantee my safety in the office and therefore wouldn't allow me on site (pre-WFH). I had numerous conversations with them about wanting to come back as I felt well enough but they wouldn't let me.

When I returned, about 6 months later I had food poisoning and spent a Saturday, Sunday and Monday throwing up. I went back on the Tuesday and my line manager tried to give me a disciplinary for too high a level on the Bradford factor, despite the fact it was two instances and one where they had insisted I be off. I pushed back and it turned out it was a trigger for a conversation which could allow for disciplinary action if required, but it was circumstance dependent and upto the line manager to seek advice on the best course of action if they were unsure. Mine went straight for disciplinary because that's the sentence in the policy they'd read.

Circumstances matter, and decent employers know that. Someone who has taken the mick and then decides to challenge because someone who hasn't had been "left alone" has no actual argument.

So none of your children has EVER

• vomitted? Or had diarrhoea? (Average of 1&2 bouts for kids a year)
• had chicken pox? (90% of kids get this)
• a fever
• covid/flu/any other random bug?
• no broken bones

The Idea that in over a decade none of you, adults or kids would have got any of these is so statistically unlikely I'm struggling to believe you.

If that is the case, you must realise that your family is ASTOUNDINGLY fortunate though and most people do get ill sometimes.

I don't think that's particularly unusual - ds has only had a couple of days off school in 5 years. He had chicken pox when he was 3, has only ever once had a sickness bug, and it was during the easter holidays, hasn't broken any bones to date. I can't remember the last time he had a fever, but certainly not for a good few years.

Ok, so thats one child who has clearly beem fortunate, but who has still had 'a couple of days off' + chicken pox + 1 D&V bug (albeit most of this not in school time). So about 3 things in 7 years by my calculations. 1 illness every 2 and a bit person years.

The poster I was quoting had at least 2 children (referring to them plurally) and between her and her husband, had accumulated 2 sick days in about 48 equivalent years by my calculations. 1 every quarter of a century 😂.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. I hope things ate much better for you now. 💐 x

You can struggle all you like. No they never had bouts of D&V . I remember my daughter being sick once when she was about 3, possibly a stomach bug but short lived. The younger two had chicken pox over the summer holidays before they started school, the eldest was only 10 months . None of us have had covid that we know of. Again we get the odd cold here and there and feel unwell but nothing that would require not going to school or work. no broken bones.

Still amazed by how many people apparently don't ever get ill! In my current team of 10, one person has been off in the last week with a bad cold (I mean sure this person could probably technically work but would not be productive at all and could just prolong the illness by not resting) and one with a migraine. I'm pretty sure every single person has had at least one sick day in the last year - a variety of illnesses including COVID, extended chest infection, mental health, endometriosis flare up, d&v bug, bad colds/ flu and a minor operation. Maybe we are an extremely unhealthy team!

What amazes me is that on MN children are supposed to go from needing lots of sickness days (always lots of people defending very high sickness rates of school children) to zero sickness days unless you are in hospital.

If it helps ive had 1 day of d&v in my 30 years of work - it was during planned leave so in effect ive never had a day of for d&v either. I picked up colds from the kids but was not so severe as to need to be off work sick with it. Had flu that turned into pneumonia though, that was severe and signed off for a month. My point is not everyone has cold/d&v related sickness absences. My previous boss hadnt had a sick day in 5 years (nor did he come to work sick). Ive probably just jinxed us both now.

OP, this is why Covid took so long to get under control. People get sacked for taking genuine sick leave all the time. Four days in a year is a normal amount of illness but sadly it's also "normal" for employers to consider it excessive

I can say my kids had chicken pox aged 1 and 3 so no school absences, no broken bones, no fever absences (one was hospitalised with a nasty virus but it was summer holidays so no sickness absence), and had covid when schools shut so no sickness absences either, no vomiting or d&v. It cant be that uncommon, surely? 10 years of schooling between them and maybe 10 days of absences between them but mostly down to me taking them to activities - we live far from major cities so to experience significant culture etc we have 10 hour round trips which are killers midweek so ive taken them out early or kept them off the following day. Im not ableist and I know not all kids are the same. Im just saying we dont have the things you listed either. (400 kids in their primary school and they attend activities every day so plenty exposure.)

Until recently, I was in a country where it was normal to take time off with a cold. It stopped it spreading, so fewer people got sick.

The UK’s attitude to work, with long hours expected, working more than contracted hours potentially rewarded with promotion, but no overtime payments and the expectation you’ll drag yourself in and give your bugs to everyone else is awful, yet so normalised that people see it as virtuous and criticize others who aren’t so fortunate.

See how it goes OP, but maybe you can find somewhere better to work. Problem is, it’s not always easy to find out until you’re committed.

For those whose children never vomit, it may be they’re lucky enough to have the blood type which seems to protect them from norovirus. Wish I had it!

I’ve never had a sick day in the last 17 years - and both my children have only had one day each and they are in 6th form. It does happen 🤷‍♀️ they never got covid either and when I got it I went to work (was allowed to by this point)

I’m not lying either, despite some PPs saying that’s not possible!

You went to work knowing you had COVID? What type of workplace do you have? Rules or not, anybody in my workplace would stay at home if they knew they had an extremely infectious virus that can knock people out for days, just out of common courtesy. Particularly as we would have no idea how many vulnerable people / people with family members going through chemo / people caring for elderly relatives we might infect in a large open plan office.