At the end of my tether with my 5 year old’s bedtime!

[Alpacawool]

My 5 year old is on the waiting list for an autism/adhd assessment.
He’s very bright, talkative and non stop from the moment he wakes up (early).
He’s never been a good sleeper, even as a baby, he hardly napped, I used to drive him around in the car to help him drop off for just 20 mins, then I’d have to sit in the car while he slept, if I tried to carry him out, he’d just wake up again.

Now every night since he’s been in his own bedroom (we co-slept until he was 3). He needs one of us laying with him until he falls asleep, obviously at the moment we are on school holidays, but it’s now 21:40 and he’s still not asleep.
We do so much during the day - swimming, walking for miles (mostly uphill as we live in a valley), playing outdoors most of the day. He’s never been one for getting up late, the latest he’s ever woken up is probably 7:30am.

This bedtime routine is sending me insane , we take it in turns but we don’t get any time together, about 10 mins if we’re lucky, before we both crash out. Even when he’s at school, it’s not mych better.
We always take him up for a bath by 8pm, read him two stories and listen to his tonie box to fall asleep, usually all the stories have finished and it starts over again before he actually falls asleep.

He also wakes in the night - normally around 2 or 3am and comes into our bed, once he’s in there, he does fall back to sleep until about 6:30/7.

Despite these late nights and waking early - he never seems particularly tired during the day and his brain is as sharp as ever.

Please help with tips, I’m thinking I may try magnesium gummies or a pillow spray.

What would happen if you just kept putting him back in bed over and over instead of lying next to him? Might take a few nights but sure he would get bored and fall asleep alone eventually.

What worked for me with my autistic DC was to reframe bedtime as bed time rather than sleep time. We taught them that it's fine if they aren't tired and that they don't need to go to sleep but that 8pm (or whatever time) is bed time and that means it's time to be on your bed. While in bed you can sleep or you can read or you can do other quiet activities (DC liked those books where you have to spot so many objects on each page) and you cannot get out of bed unless you need the toilet or it's an emergency.

It took a couple of weeks of reminding DC "it's bed time, that means it's time to be in your bed" (like a mantra) but it soon stuck.

DC has eventually ended up on melatonin as they don't ever feel sleepy without it but the idea of bed time being tone to go in your bed/bedroom has stayed with them and even now as a teen they will go up to their room at the time they consider bedtime.

Lavender pillow spray. Lavender baby bath. Take him to the GP and get melatonin. Look at his diet during the day. Make sure he’s not eating anything that will keep him up longer.
kids can drink camomile tea, (as long as they don’t have allergies obviously) as it’s decaf. Play brown noise. YouTube has it. Get a black out blind if you don’t already have one. Look at his bedroom and make it as calm and restful as possibly. If it’s busy and rammed with exciting toys and things, clear it out and even if you need to decorate it to make it calmer, do it. Get your son involved in the process so his room is a special, relaxing place for him. It’s tough. I have an asn kid too who never slept well and was a 5am riser. Maybe bring his bedtime routine forward an hour too. Start the process at 7 instead of 8.

Any sensory needs not being met? Look up vestibular stimulation...you can get him to carry something heavy backwards and forwards etc for a while, about 30mins before the bedtime routine starts.

I'd also say, maybe he needs less sleep than is typical (which is often associated with ND) so maybe up to bed but don't need to sleep yet as other PP mentioned.

Fucking hard though when you don't get a break! X

I think you're starting the bedtime routine too late.
However, staying with your child until they sleep is normal! I think it's easy to think every other parent in the world kissed their child goodnight, switches the light off and closes the door ready to have an evening to themselves at 7.30pm every night..that's the dream but it's a very rare reality I think! It certainly doesn't work like that for us nor any of my colleagues and friends with young children.

We put too much pressure on ourselves

I'm with the poster who said to start an earlier bedtime routine. DD was similar, would only nap at very specific times under specific conditions even as a baby.

We had to reframe bedtime and it took a lot of consistency and willpower, to repeat the process of putting her back in bed, giving a kiss, a little cuddle and reminding her. She's now well into the swing of it and we have evenings bank, took about 3/4 months. Bath, teeth, toilet, story, cuddle, bed. About 30 minutes but always the same.

I'm Autistic/ADHD so recognise the need for sensory wind down aswell. We shut off TV 45 mins before bedtime or make sure she's watching a calm show if there is any TV. It's helped massively. Have to make sure she's physically got her energy out aswell

Defo start the routine earlier , I start 1.5 hours before I want my autistic child to actually get in bed.

Does he like audiobooks? Our DC5 drifts off listening to her Tonie box every night - just make sure and choose one of the less jaunty stories!

My autistic DD was exactly the same. As pp said we had a bed time routine and then she had to be in bed but didn’t need to go to sleep. She would read or play quietly and if she still wasn’t asleep by the time I went to bed I would go in with her. Just having that extra bit of child free time really helped my sanity and DD also knew that I would help her sleep if she couldn’t manage it on her own.
This might not work for some kids but carbs also help her feel sleepy. She has either a slice of toast or wrap before bed which seems to help.
DD is 10 now and doesn’t need me anymore at bedtime so it did improve. She still doesn’t need much sleep but she has her own routines that work for her.

Have you tried the super nanny approach?

First time you put him back in bed with a kiss goodnight.
Second time put him back in and simply say it's bedtime now.
All following times just place him back in bed without a word.

It is extremely long and difficult to begin with, but with perseverance it works more often than not.

@Alpacawool Our son is also awaiting assessment, he's 4.5 and the last couple of weeks it's been midnight until 7am most nights with his sleep!

We usually start winding down at 7.30, that's supper, stories, bed and I have to be with him reading or listening to a story until he goes off. We turn the TV off at 6pm religiously and he doesn't have an iPad or anything. We never do baths after 6/6.30 because they stimulate him too much!

But the last few nights it's just been too hot to stick that out for hours, so we've been going to the park or pub with a bouncy castle until gone 9 - we know he's gonna be up anyway so would rather have some fresh air and take the fight out of it for a bit until it cools down! We go on holiday at the weekend so will start our normal routine again after we're back.

Things that sometimes help on a usual night are a - banana before bed, magnesium foot cream and fact books rather than stories - he's very interested in them but doesn't get as distracted. The darker nights are better too, it's hard for him to get the signal that it's bed time when it's light at 9pm!

A note about meletonin - it's really not that simple! Only a Paediatrician can prescribe it and they are very reluctant to do so. We got a trial vial of 30ml and was told we couldn't get a full prescription without an autism (not ADHD) diagnosis and even then they prefer not to use it. It's irrelevant for us ATM anyway because our son refuses to take it - spits it out from, knows if I'm trying to get him to have a drink with it in and we can't mix it with food as it cannot be given 2 hours before or after food. So we're knocking that on the head for now and may revisit if needed when he's older and (hopefully!) understands more about why he may need it.

Also, this is a weird one - you say about lots of activities and exercise which is great and we do similar most days, but have you tried having a "down day" where you staying in except a little walk or 2? Toys, telly, "helping" with house stuff, garden, reading, day bath etc. Sometimes my son actually sleeps easier after a day like that, it isn't consistent because nothing is with him but it definitely works sometimes so thought I'd mention it!

You have sympathies, DS1 (8) is very similar, he is NT as far as we know, but very bright and also has the energy levels of a springer spaniel.

Things that help - lots and lots of exercise during the day, back ground noise to go to sleep (rain sounds or something boring only mummy likes), and a short bedtime routine.
If I put him to bed at 8 I think he'd roll around and moan for 2 hours. If I make bedtime later then he watches TV nicely or plays a board game with us then goes to sleep in 10 mins with rain sounds.

My 4 year old is exactly the same. Normally it’s bedtime at 8pm, and he takes until 9-9.30pm to fall asleep. Early bedtime we tried a few months but 7pm bed just meant he faffed even longer and still didn’t go to bed until 9-9.30pm.

Whats helped me is that I now just let him fall asleep in my bed. I just lay next to him and read my kindle or phone for an hour or so. And he actually falls asleep more calmly without in and out of his bed and jumping around. Then I just move him to his bed.
He still returns to our bed at some point most nights, occasionally sleeps in his all night. Usually up by 6.30am.

I have been told he’s never tired at nursery, and he’s had a few overnight hospital stays for other stuff where they said it’s just normal and most kids do need time and help.

As a baby (6-18 months) , if he woke up in his cot and was alone. He would start crying and if we didn’t get to him within about 20 seconds he would hold his breathe in panic until he started turning blue. Took his to doctors a few times for that and they also said other children do that, and told us never to leave him to self settle if crying as it was really dangerous for children like him.

I used to put a childrens audio book on and he'd fall asleep, in about 10 minutes, and I would creep out. After a while I didn't need to lay down with him just put a story on. Hope that helps!

This sounds quite a lot like my 5yo, though he will sleep in at least. Also very bright and insane stamina. He regularly doesn’t fall asleep til after 10pm. DH has to travel for work sometimes and I couldn’t lie with the 5yo when it was just me at home (I’ve also got two older kids) so the agreement we made was that he would stay in bed with his audiobook and I would pop back between jobs to give him big hugs and kisses. He still asks every night if DH or I will lie with him til he falls asleep but he’s ok with the popping in and out approach, or having ‘short snuggles’ - one of us will lie with him for one chapter of his audiobook or something like that.

@TwinklyNight - we have tried the tonie
box for audio books. He just waits until the entire book is finished and then we are back to starting settling for sleep. So instead of in bed at 8.30pm and asleep by 9.15pm. He will get into bed at 8.30pm, listen to entire 60min book, which finishes at 9.30pm, then still takes another 30-60mins to settle. So it’s then 10-10.30pm asleep

My mil stayed a few months ago and told us we were all too late and not firm enough. After day 5 of her doing bedtime of taking him up at 7pm and going in and out about 50times a night and him still awake at 11pm, she gave up.

You e got into a habit and you being there is actually prolonging it. Google the 3!day nanny back to bed routine Start at 7pm. Follow it to the letter it will work.

Melatonin? Give it half an hour before bedtime and hope things improve.

There are people who will understand this and people who won’t. I do.
Time fixes a lot of things, sending you strength x

You need to move bedtime earlier for a start x

You have my sympathy. This sounds exactly like my DD6.

What finally helped is when she started reading. She still only sleeps at 9.30, but at least she mostly quietly reads on her own so we can have some downtime!

The added benefit is that she is a very good reader.