To be fed up of trades men and their lies

[cherryys]

Just a rant really

We're going through a house renovation and everything is soo stressful but the main stress in my life are bloody trades men who you hire because they tell you they can start tomorrow at x time and when that time comes you don't hear from them for 6-10 hours when they tell you they are at someone else's house 5 hours away and will have to delay you for 5 days....

Why say you can start tomorrow then? I'm about to loose it with all of them when they get here.

My DH is very chilled but I'm on a deadline and I want to pay people who are reliable but none of them are .. they are not cheap and they make promises they can't keep.

Why not be honest and say I'd take the job but can't start until x date. I would appreciate that much more

Yesterday I was meant to have an electrician and Plummer in from 9am and one didn't text all day only to get a text today to say" I was busy see you tomorrow at 8am" (it's 8:30 and no word from him) & the other who turned up at 8pm last night after my kids were in bed ..

AIBU to send them both a text to not bother turning up today?

Hope it makes sense.. I am so angry

One bad female plumber doesn’t mean they are all bad. I’ve had multiple bad male plumbers over the years, I don’t write off their whole sex for that.

In my experience women working in trades have to be better and work harder than their male counterparts because they are viewed as being less capable. The all women electrician team we use is bloody brilliant and fixed all sorts of problems created by male electricians over the years! I started hiring women on the basis that I found many male tradesmen to be patronising towards me, but then found that the women have also been more reliable overall.

Well you’re right, but 99% of plumbers are male so if you wrote them all off you’d be buggered.

I suppose when you try to give someone a chance and you get burnt it puts you off a bit.

Funnily enough, we have a couple of highly regarded builder brothers (in their 50s) in our village. They're hopelessly disorganised and unreliable, but they're very well respected for the quality of work, and are very expensive, and always booked up months in advance. I think the appeal is that they are honest. They openly admit they're hopelessly disorganised. They never make "firm" appointments for quotes or starting a job etc. It's always "we'll pop round when we're passing" and they will, eventually, turn up for quotes etc. Then, when it comes to starting a big job, it's always, "well, we've got Mrs Smith's extension next which will take 2-3 months, then Mr Jone's re-pointing which will be a couple of weeks, so maybe back end of September". For smaller "fill in" jobs, they literally will just turn up as and when between the bigger jobs, whilst waiting for supplies or for other tradies etc. Villagers know not to bother with them if they want specific dates etc. They barely ever leave the village, always around if you drive around a bit, you'll find their vans somewhere! Probably ideal workmen for the oldies in the village who are nearly always around, so don't have to take time off work or make specific appointments around work, school, childcare or whatever. The reason we barely use them is that they never quote either - the bill is always for however long it took them, which is something I just can't fathom that people agree to - they're very vague. For a small bit of a roofing job we asked them to do once, they "quoted" "a thousand or two", and that was it, however much I asked for clarification and more exact pricing, they said it was the best they could say. They even do lots of decorating jobs, both inside and out which I find very strange as they're far more expensive than a typical decorator. So, I think, they just attract lots of repeat business, despite being expensive, just on the back of actually doing a good job eventually, and not lying or otherwise messing people about. The customers clearly are flexible and have the money!

My theory is they’re all cokeheads. That’s what the last tradesman told me (pretending not to be one himself). They yap way too much, talk more than they work (if they do show up), and just exert this shitty male dominance. They’ve got a parasitic mentality, most tradesmen. I have these guys working behind my house (neighbour is finishing up an extension) and it’s like Lord of the Flies over there.
I had to access my alleyway, gently (I will add) moved the tradesmen’s two bikes blocking my access/gate to the communal alley, and suddenly I had a group of guys asking me what I was doing. Fucking accessing my communal alleyway from my own gate, is what. Instant aggro from these guys… always confrontational, tradesmen.

It's interesting that you say this, as I do agree to an extent but I think a large part of the problems people experience is because non academic kids are automatically encouraged to go into trades and a lot of them struggle with organisation massively, they might get taken under the wing of a more experienced person early on via apprenticeships etc, but if the example that their employer sets early on is to take the piss, they then take that into when they become self employed. I've met trades who are good at the physical work but are terrible at the organisation, and have been taught bad habits around communication and quality etc - so the work often ends up shoddy because of those elements rather than ability. It's hard work being self employed and running your own business and I think it unfortunately goes 'you're not academic? Here is the physical side, here's the health and safety, here's a m accountant contact, off you go' when kids need more support on the 'running a business' side.

Oh god don't get me started. I got a highly recommended local builder round to look at replacing the kitchen units. Done he says, easy, I'll charge you my day rate. Obviously he starts and sucks his teeth because the units are flat packed because that's how they come. Then it's 'oh I didn't realize you aren't replacing the worktop (I told him), it will be very difficult. It's all very difficult' He's managed to misalign the oven cabinet and keeps banging on about how difficult it is. It's now taken him 5 days and the cost is more than the units. And of course he wants paying in cash.

Then I discover that one of the bathrooms is leaking, undermining the parquet floor. He gets his son round to fix the waste trap-that's £150 please. The leak is still there. 'Oh it's very difficult, we'll need to rip off all the tiles and replace, very difficult'

I will be getting someone else in to do the bathroom and agreeing a price with them in advance. And possibly getting some stress counseling.

Had this so many times. Infuriating!
Actually, I've found that those who come on recommendation often to be the worst.
I go through those sites like 'trusted tradesman' etc now, and have not had an issue since.

Try dealing with the French variety. A visit to take measurements and still no quote after five weeks.

Honestly it is maddening. What other industry do people get away with being so unreliable and unprofessional? We've had loads of people in different trades just not turn up when they have said they would. It was practically impossible to get a quote from a roofer. They literally just never called me back after saying they would until recently we finally got a company out (who charged a fortune). We were scammed by a plumber (which was lovely) but we've had a really decent recommendation from someone local who has been good, to be fair to him. The electrician didn't show up last week so I've decided to sack him off if he ever gets back in touch. Argh!

Definitely agree with what you say. I think all kids should get taught the basics of running a business when at school, cash flow, budgeting, quoting, customer management etc. All these skills and more are essential for business but portable to other areas of life too. It shouldn't be the case that kids leaving school who WANT to be a trade or run their own business end up failing as they don't have some of the business basics (despite having numerous GCSEs etc).

@ShinyHappyTits

And of course he wants paying in cash.

That's also becoming commonplace with them overtly telling you they'll "knock off the VAT" for cash, making it sound like they're doing you a favour, but in reality, it's even better for them to avoid the 20% income tax, 9% NIC, and, often, avoiding child maintenance payments!

On the (thankfully few) occasions we've need scaffolding, they've all been upfront in saying VAT free for cash, and these were for jobs of £2000 or so, so not peanuts. Same with a builder a couple of years ago for a £10k job. They're not even "nudge nudge wink wink" about it anymore - they're so open about tax fraud! Clearly don't think there's any risk of them being caught.

Same with car repair shops. We got two quotes for repairs after a neighbour wrote off our car. Two "proper" garages (not a bloke in his back yard/garage!) - both were bigger firms doing insurance jobs, and both were upfront in saying they'd knock off the VAT for cash if they could do it at a weekend!

"It's interesting that you say this, as I do agree to an extent but I think a large part of the problems people experience is because non academic kids are automatically encouraged to go into trades and a lot of them struggle with organisation massively, they might get taken under the wing of a more experienced person early on via apprenticeships etc, but if the example that their employer sets early on is to take the piss, they then take that into when they become self employed. I've met trades who are good at the physical work but are terrible at the organisation, and have been taught bad habits around communication and quality etc - so the work often ends up shoddy because of those elements rather than ability. It's hard work being self employed and running your own business and I think it unfortunately goes 'you're not academic? Here is the physical side, here's the health and safety, here's a m accountant contact, off you go' when kids need more support on the 'running a business' side."

Hit the nail on the head here (pun not intended)

Many disorganised, non academic children/teens had no choice but to go into trades years ago. It was and still is a case of "x needs a labourer, you can start in the morning" Organisational skills are not something that comes naturally to a lot of people.

This is one reason governments are keen on a ' cash less ' society I suppose , but they probably have ways of getting around this too with other accounts to pay the cash into or however they might get around that problem.

What other industry do people get away with being so unreliable and unprofessional?

Estate agency, much of the motor trade, most politicians - the list goes on

However we encounter many of these only occasionally whereas jobs need doing in homes all the time, so maybe we notice the lack of professionalism more?

This issue was discussed on the radio the other day. We have Brexit to thank for a lot of it. Total skill shortage in certain trades so the ones left are able to take complete advantage by being late/rude/charging a fortune. Good luck! I often think female owned companies or female only builders would do well. I know that is reversed sexism bla bla bla but women would feel more comfortable with them than being fobbed off by blokes constantly.

I think that technology has had an adverse effect in this area really. Go back to when I started in accountancy 40 years ago, we had a lot of "trades" clients, but they all had "someone" behind the scenes doing the admin, books, etc., usually the wife or a neighbour who did "a bit of admin". That meant the tradie himself just concentrated on doing the work and wasn't spending some of his day writing/posting quotes/invoices, trying (and often failing) to keep his own diary, etc. They'd have someone behind them keeping them on track, telling them what needed doing, ordering supplies, etc.

Now we have smart phones, tradies and their ilk are bombarded with adverts telling them how easy it would be to do their invoicing on a phone app, or internet banking, etc., and now they're having to juggle all that too, as they're being fed the narrative that they don't need anyone doing the admin/accounts as it's "so easy" to do it themselves! I'm sure it's part of why they never have the parts/materials they need and seem to spend half the day on the road going back and fro to suppliers etc!

We have our office burglar alarm fitted and maintained by an "old school" guy. He must be in his 70s now (or maybe even his 80s), but all he does is go out and install/replace/maintain domestic and small business burglar alarms - everything else is done by his wife (similar age). She manages his diary, sends out yearly reminders/invoices for the maintenance contracts, prepares his quotes, etc. Whenever we phone, she answers and books him in for an appointment/fitting etc. When he's here and we ask him to do something else (such as replacing a light fitting as he's a qualified electrician), he always tells us he'll get his wife to send us a quote - she does the ordering/pricing, etc. He whinges about her sometimes (in jest mostly), but I actually think he enjoys it as he can do the bit he likes, i.e. the electrical work, and she does all the organisation/management etc. He's never late and never misses an appointment!

Rubbish. It was bad long before Brexit! You can't constantly blame Brexit for everything.

I had a funny conversation with some American friends recently. We live in an EU country and they had been renovating. At one point they'd hired an English window fitter and they were perplexed by his constant flakiness and failure to show up - he was always sending them messages about broken down vans, dead grandmothers etc etc.

They were astonished when I wryly told them that was standard British tradesman behaviour, and every one of those messages would have been a lie.

Yeah it’s got nothing to do with Brexit. I had exactly the same problems pre 2016. Worst ever tradesman was a builder back in 2008 who put the kitchen he’d torn out in the back garden and then informed me he’d been banned from the tip!

This is a problem that’s been going on for at least 20 - 25 years.

"Cashless" won't work to stop tax evasion. They'll just find other ways. Look at money laundering and drug dealing - the "big" money changes hands in ways other than cash/bank, such as guns, works of art, yachts, sports cars, etc.

Tradesmen who do work for each other, do it on a "bartering" type of system. I.e. a plumber will do a bit of work for an electrician, and in turn, an electrician will do some work for the plumber at a future date. It's done that way, without money changing hands, to avoid tax, CIS tax, VAT, etc. Not much of a problem when it's work for others, as the tax loss/gain balances out, but it's plain and simple tax evasion when one tradie is doing work on another's own home or an investment property, etc., where there is a tangible tax loss.

We even had a "cash in hand" gardener once who wanted us to pay one of his suppliers directly so it wouldn't go through his books "to avoid VAT". The thing was, the supplies weren't even for our job - we were having a lawn laid and he wanted us to send a cheque to Howden's kitchens! Obviously, we refused as we're not paying for someone else's kitchen! We may have paid the bill for the turf if he'd wanted us to pay a landscaping firm directly, but not for something completely different. He was most put out and couldn't understand why we were being "awkward"!

Me too. I am honestly still traumatised by last renovation we had done which was eight years ago.

I could have written your post. We had our house gutted - new kitchen, flooring, bathrooms, plastering etc.

I would say EVERY single one the people involved in the house has lied.

“Oh no we had to leave that gap between the tile and your kitchen cabinet because of x”. Next guy comes along and tells me that’s bollocks.

Paint “snot” everywhere, and when I pointed it out to the painter in the nicest way humanly possibly he got massively defensive and explained why its impossible for that not to happen.

So many lies. Very demoralising.

I agree with this.

I leave honest reviews. A plasterer contacted me and asked me to change the review as I was literally taking food from his children's mouths. I had paid him 5K for a poor experience and questionable finish so I declined.

They are taking the piss.

I also blame Brexit for the lack of competition that makes charlatans think they can overcharge for poor service. Apprenticeships are not the answer. Competent tradespeople undercutting prices is the way to go and that means opening trade so that we who pay are not held hostage.