To think that Sensory Trauma is behind the Strictly allegations against Giovanni?

[kikir]

Sensory trauma is a concept from the Autistic community - autistic people describe things like a sudden loud noise (eg a door slamming) or being exposed to overly bright lighting as often being a source of extreme distress, where they would likely be no more than a mild irritation to neurotypical people. Autistic people have often been shamed their whole lives for their "overreactions" when in fact their reactions are entirely proportional to their lived experiences.

I'm not autistic, but I am disabled by various other conditions and experience something very similar myself. Having spoken to others with ME/CFS in particular, I believe we as a group experience sensory trauma or something like it too. Some say that things they would've easily taken in their stride before getting ME/CFS (like their boss shouting at them at work), became intolerable and sources of extreme distress, once they'd got the illness, often leaving them shaken for days and needing to take time off to recover.

I'm now wondering if sensory trauma is in large part what's behind the Strictly/Giovanni debacle. It does not appear that there was any physical or sexual assault as that would have resulted in immediate dismissal and also no verbal abuse so bad it would have constituted misconduct. The media are reporting that there is no smoking gun. Which leaves me wondering if this man was just very explosive - erupting with rage at his celeb pupils, who were in a state of extreme exhaustion having been forced to train so hard and so intensively. And thereby causing actual trauma from the assault on the senses while too depleted to be able to cope with it. Has anyone got any thoughts on this?

I guess we may find out later on today unless the report has been delayed.

I wouldnt know if sensory trauma plays a part in the Strictly situation but It's quite an interesting perspective. Remember Roxanne Pallet on Big Brother? She was convinced Ryan had punched her, and hurt her, when the evidence clearly showed that he hadn't. Even though millions of people could see the truth, she persisted in saying otherwise. Everyone said she was an evil lying brat but maybe because of past trauma in her life she convinced herself of it and had felt something that wasn't there.

I agree. But why do you say bullying is rife 'in the UK?' It's quite a strangely specific claim to make. I am fairly certain there hasn't been any study comparing bullying rates per country.

Or maybe, just maybe, she’d got herself into a situation and continued with the lie to save face - rather like a child who’s caught out in a lie but can’t back down?

I worked professionally in another artistic performance field and one of the reasons I don’t do that anymore is because I was exasperated that the behaviour of the teachers and directors was seen as normal. In other industries it would not have been allowed eg. If a boss in an office behaved like that, they would be removed very quickly. But for some reason it is tolerated.
Under the guise of being ‘creative experts’ they were able to shout, give unrelentingly harsh criticism in front of other people during so-called masterclasses, and essentially ridicule you.
When the performance you give is coming from yourself - your body or your voice - criticism hits very deeply.
Many years into this, I did start standing up to these people (which just served to damage my rep as being ‘troublesome’) but people entering the industry were just so keen for a break, they put up with it.
That’s not an ND issue, it’s a tw@t issue. I can well imagine what Amanda had to put up with because of his ego.

And this is why they are putting chaperones in the rehearsal rooms because it's a he said she said scenario at present.

I wasn't there, I don't know what happened - and neither do any of you. I have had people say "stop shouting at me!" though when I was not shouting at all, just speaking assertively, in a similar teaching scenario (no, not dance) but in a small group scenario where the other participants have not perceived any shouting or anything wrong.

It's certainly not substantiated anywhere?

I thought rehearsals were filmed, which is why Amanda is asking for hours of footage to be released?.

You misunderstood her post. She never said erupting with rage was an autistic thing. She said maybe people with autism and similar conditions might be more sensitive. Although you have over reacted to what she didn't say.

I have no idea about the programme or what happened so couldn't personally comment on it.

I have 2 ND teen children. The sensory issues, sensory processing disorder, is really obvious in ND people. It's not fair to suggest that was the case IMO as SPD affects people every day, not just a one off. I think you're perhaps mixing that up with a snowflake - very different!
I heard that there was footage and Amanda has said this is out there it's just being withheld - I also heard a report of what happened is imminent too so hopefully this will get sorted out.
She may be a snowflake, but from the general gist of what's being said, I think some dancers perhaps are interested in the prize, and perhaps push their celebrities too hard
I think the ethos of the show perhaps is in question, is it the show pushing too hard for professionals to get the main prize ... or is it the dancers' well certain ones, being too hard just to 'win' no matter what

The dancers start when they're very young and are used to discipline and pushing themselves. Combined with a desire to win, could push the boundaries. That's certainly been proven with Graziano, and the accusations against Giovanni. I saw the C4 interview with Amanda, and she was clearly upset, but didn't go into specifics.

I thought rehearsals were filmed, which is why Amanda is asking for hours of footage to be released?.

I think some were, not all. this is why they are putting in chaperones for all sessions in the new series.

Right. Possibly training for the pros - just because you're a successful dancer, doesn't mean you're a great coach. Although, to be fair, Giovanni has been successful. I'd be interested to hear what Rose Ayling Ellis has to say.

How on earth do you know if bullying is not substantiated elsewhere? Have you read press from a range of other countries? The UK is very parochial in what it reports so if you only read British news sources you won’t find out much about what happens in other countries.

It’s part of my job to monitor world news. I can tell you that bullying generally and bullying of TV contestants specifically is news in several other European countries at the moment as well as the US,Canada and India.

This reads as utter bollocks.
There is a huge difference between being unable to tolerate noise etc due to autism and being verbally abused. Plus none of those who have spoken about abuse on Strictly have autism anyway.
What is your agenda here OP? I can’t decide if this is stupidity or a pathetic attempt at manipulation. Possibly from yet another defender of poor misunderstood aggressive men or a Giovani fan.

Rose has been noticeably quiet on this issue. I do remember her saying that he used to flare up and she used to call him a lizard (she did the BSL sign for lizard in the clauditorium after one of their dances to describe him). I think she just laughed at him and probably gave as good as she got. Not that that excuses his behaviour or is in any way a suggestion that everyone should just do that and it wouldn't be an issue.

It's generalising. The UK is "parochial" with news? My point is this - you can't claim that bullying is more rife in the UK than anywhere else. Of course it happens. More so than any other country? Just because this issue has made the news overseas does not, to me, constitute proof.

I think you're right. She did seem to laugh at some of his behaviour. They did have an amazing dance partnership, that's for sure.

I hope the BBC will be rigorous with their investigations. Graziano and Giovanni have gone. Let's see what happens next.

Bit overwhelmed by the response although very pleased people are engaging with the idea. I wrote the post in a hurry to try to express something I've been thinking about for a good few years now.

I'm absolutely not victim blaming or trying to write people off as being too sensitive. The opposite. The point I'm trying to argue is that extreme sensory overwhelm can and does lead to trauma, even in neurotypical people without any other health conditions that might make them particularly susceptible to it. Although they are generally far more susceptible when pushed to the point of extreme exhaustion (also potentially traumatic on its own).

It also does not take long for this type of experience to cause lasting damage. Shouting is therefore very much a type of verbal abuse although not one that many people recognise or understand, probably because not all shouting is abuse and it's hard to say exactly where the line should be - nevertheless, there's a world of difference between raising your voice to give instruction and convey authority and subjecting people to rage-induced tirades of over the top criticism. And of course abusers hide behind this, saying that all teachers shout and that complaining about it is wokism gone mad.

I've been following this story since Amanda first went public and to begin with, hardly anyone seemed to believe her and people were quite condescending about her perceived overreaction, even on mumsnet. More people seem to be believing her since the revelations about Zara and Graziano came out even though the substance of her own claims hasn't changed much (I realise she's not allowed to go into detail but if there was physical violence or the type of verbal abuse that people take seriously (eg a serious slur), I think we would know about it by now). Which to me suggests that there are types of abuse (like shouting) that are taken far less seriously because people just don't understand how damaging they can be and how long-lasting the impact often is.

Whatever happens, I will be interested to read the results of the investigations that the BBC have been conducting. I just worry they are going to minimise what the women experienced (and from Laura Whitmore's post it does sound like a good many women and possibly a man or two experienced something very similar).

I think the fact that Rose could not hear the shouting (even if she sounds like she witnessed it) possibly protected her.

Rose could not hear any shouting, however, it would not make her immune to any unreasonable training methods or inappropriate behaviour. She is an intelligent and sensitive person, and very in tune with Gio throughout the training process.

If several women claim a man was an abusive bully who sexually intimidated them, I think its far more likely to turn out that that is exactly what he is, than to be found that all of the women have a condition that makes them overly sensitive to appropriate male behaviour. Dont you?

I went to a "dancing with the stars" weekend with the strictly dancers, but don't watch the show so had no idea who anyone was before I went and had no preconceptions at all about any of them.

Giovanni was vile. He was rude, snippy, and beyond arrogant. He was dancing with Lauren and we could see her getting slowly more and more irate and upset with him during our class. At first we thought it was just a character he was putting on but it became apparent that if that's the case, it was heavily grounded in reality.

He talked over her, continually pushed her face away with his hand ("helping" show correct form but it was genuinely quite jaw dropping how forcefully he was pushing her face while saying "her breath stinks so I don't want it in my face, like this") and when she was trying to help people, would interrupt with comments about how the group had no sense of rhythm and other uncalled for comments. She did really well to keep her composure. In contrast, the other dancers were all lovely, helpful, and seemed pleased to be there to meet people that cared about dancing, even if the class weren't as quick as they'd expected. For him, it was the Giovanni show and he was just glad that someone was wearing his perfume and carrying a bag with his name on it, but pissed off he had to teach a class that weren't picking it up as fast as he wanted them to.

If that's what he was like with a group of strangers paying a lot of money for a one off class with him, I don't doubt at all how he'd be with a non-dancer when there were stakes like winning the show and they're one on one. I can absolutely believe training with him could be very traumatic, ND or not.

Exactly what I'm not arguing.

I have a family member who has mild ASD, and apparently, his misreading of social situations because he is ND is the reason he sexually abused his daughter. 🙄 Neurodiversity doesn’t excuse abuse. Abuse is abuse. My family member sexually abused his daughter because he’s a creepy perv with no boundaries. He was perfectly able to read social cues well enough to work in a demanding City job for like 40 years. And to function well enough in all other areas of life. But I think being ND is an easy get out of jail free card for some nasty people and their apologists who don’t want to believe they could really do the bad things it looks like they did.