To think vapes are not good for society

[MeouwCat]

I smoked for 25 years and quit after reading Alan Carrs book. Vaping maybe safer for individuals than vaping, but the vaper is still addicted to nicotine. I think that had vaping been around when I was smoking, I would still be vaping rather than being completely free from my nictine addiction.
The "vaping is so much safer than smoking" meme is leading to younger people taking up vaping and thus nicotine addiction is just not going to go away.
Then there is this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c897qw8ddp9o#:~:text=Schoolchildren%20may%20be%20unknowingly%20smoking,side%20effects%2C%20including%20cardiac%20arrest.
I would like to see vapes only available on prescription to adults who want to use them as a path to freedom from nicotine addiction.

Really shocked to see how many of them end up as litter, and how shops like asda freely advertise them in the entrance to the store.

Not strictly speaking true. Pure nicotine would be 100% (which is basically rat poison). The highest strength nicotine vape/eliquid you can buy is 2%. Vapes can come in different strength nicotine, including zero. Sadly, shops only seem to sell disposable vapes with 2% nicotine (the max strength) so it's no wonder the latest fad kids are into is getting them into bother. Vaping too much/too quickly is what causes the heart attacks as it's a stimulant and that's how it kills rats (notwithstanding the spiked vapes which are from dodgy sources anyway).

There are only 4 chemicals in a vape (which are still, largely an unknown quantity in terms of harm). A tobacco cigarette has hundreds of carcinogenic chemicals which are known to clog up your arteries and lungs with tar and poisons. It's not the nicotine that does the long term damage - nicotine's only purpose is to get you addicted to a corporate product so they can sell more/make a profit.

I think disposable vapes should be zero nicotine and only available to over 21s although that still wouldn't stop kids doing it, it might stop them becoming addicted to the nicotine

The NHS endorses vaping as a smoking cessation method. It would be nice if it was on prescription but I doubt that will ever happen as it would be basically endorsing a chemical addiction. If it was to be prescribed, would it be put into the same category as methadone for heroin addicts? Even Nicotinell vapes/patches/lozenges are higher nicotine strength than most cigarettes.

As a stop smoking tool, (non disposable) vapes are good because you have more control over the nicotine levels and can reduce it to zero. So then you're just left with the hand to mouth habit and timings (eg after a meal) to overcome.

I shall get off my soapbox now

How many heart attacks have been caused by vaping? This is news to me.

BTW, not only do shops sell many strengths of vape, but 2% is unheard of. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it except in dilutable salt form.

My Elf bar is 20mg - which is 2%. Bought from a reputable shop and not knock off from a bloke down the pub.

The link in the OP's op references heart attacks.

Edit: Yes vape shops sell different strengths. Disposable vapes are rarely anything other than 20mg (2%).

I'm part of a litter picking group and the amount of vape rubbish - packaging and discarded vapes - is huge. One of the most common things we pick up now are smashed vapes with wires, batteries etc scattered around and getting into the environment.

Either an awful lot of vapers accidently lose this stuff or vapers are the type of people who drop litter.

It's different
Getting nicotine off a cig is like drinking vodka to get drunk compared to a vape is like drinking beer to get drunk
Most people vape a lot more but a drag or two as it's not like you have a whole cigarette to finish

A heart attack is probably the best way to go. Looking at mother and her side of the family really puts the fear in me. Well, terror really.

Re the smells - yes, some people clearly make a big deal of creating maximum smell and max smoke cloud. I generally don't vape in front of anyone else but on the two occasions I have (ex and mother) they were confused by a vape that doesn't smell. They thought they all stank of rancid fruit!

"Either an awful lot of vapers accidently lose this stuff or vapers are the type of people who drop litter."

No, thoughtless, selfish and inconsiderate people are the type of people who drop litter because they just don't care about anything other then their own selfish selves.

Anyone using a vape as a smoking cessation tool would be more careful. So if you want to blame vapers littering, blame the teenagers who vape for show.

@DatingDinosaur
Anyone using a vape as a smoking cessation tool would be more careful. So if you want to blame vapers littering, blame the teenagers who vape for show.

Really? I don't think you can assume that adults would be more careful or blame teenagers exclusively.

"I was thinking though, watching people vape recently, about the intake being much higher than traditional smoking. A traditional smoker isn't sucking on a cig as many times in an hour as someone with a vape in their hand. Multiply that over 24 hours and it's quite eye-opening."

Haha. Had this conversation with my mum recently. She smokes and I counted how many puffs it takes her to smoke it (about 15). Then she won't have one for another hour or so. Me, on the other hand (the hand with the vape in)? A couple of toots here and there over the same hour. She counted my toots and said I tooted about 16 times over the hour. So similar, all in.

Definitely something to do with there being no 'end' to a vape so psychologically you haven't 'finished your cig (vape)'.

You couldn't be more wrong but you 100% don't want to change your mind. You could ask yourself why Cancer Research UK & a plethora of other uk health groups (including the NHS) are recommending vaping to smokers. Believe it or not that book & NRT & varenicline are much less effective.

I also have a little bit of experience with the Alan Carr group & I highly highly suspect this post is something to do with them.

I also have a LOT of experience in the field of smoking cessation & with scientists, researchers & legislators. The data does not support your position & medicalising vapes would be the worst thing for the health of smokers possible. Getting a medical license for an e-cig (as we know them) likely isn't even possible & the only ppl that have tried (get this) is the tobacco industry - BAT specifically. Cos guess what, they agree with you & want bans & restrictions. Wonder why that is?

@ElizabethanAgain I don't doubt that the new regulations have a political slant - they always do! - but I dispute that criticism of the Australian model is just coming from vape lobbyists. E-cigarettes have been around for about 20 years or so but really took off from about 2011/2012 ish. If you look at smoking rates in countries with more pro-vaping policies vs Australia which has been more prohibitive, it's clear that smoking rates have decreased more in the former. E.g. comparing smoking rates in 2011/12 to 2022/23:

Australia overall smoking rate decreased by 5.3%
U.K. decreased by 7.1%
Spain decreased by 8.2%
New Zealand decreased by 9.6%

The last three have been outspoken about the potential for vapes to act as a smoking cessation aid. Obviously not possible to say that is definitely due to vaping. But... it's hardly misinformation is it?

If you read my post I said anyone using vapes as a smoking cessation tool will be more careful - because it's not just a toy/latest fad to them.

And yeah, my observation is that it's teenagers hanging around in groups, puffing away to impress their mates/try out the latest flavour then chucking the spent vape on the floor that are the vape litter louts, IMO.

I was a smoker from about the age of ten or twelve and had tried everything to give up over the years - patches, hypnotherapy, gum, cold turkey etc. I managed to give up a few times but always ended back on the smokes. I bought an ecig more out of curiosity than having any thoughts on quitting smoking. I haven't smoked a single cigarette since the day after I first vaped. I have many friends who have also switched from being heavy smokers to vapers.

In terms of it's benefit or not to society, I would look at the horrific statistics on smoking-related illness and death before deciding if you really want to push back against what is beyond doubt the most successful smoking cessation aid ever.

Is it addictive? Sure, though not as addictive as cigarettes in my experience. When I was a smoker I would be climbing the walls going more that an hour or so without a cigarette. As a vaper, I'll vape frequently when I can but on those occasions when I can't (like being on a plane, train etc) it's no big deal.

Even if it is addictive, so what? What are the consequences? Are people turning to crime or prostitution to feed their addiction? Are alleged addicts actually causing themselves harm? Well there is little to no evidence that vaping is harmful, assuming the quality of the liquid is controlled. The most common argument you will get from detractors is that we don't have proof it's safe. That's a fool's argument. We generally ban or control things because we have evidence they are dangerous, not because we can't prove to some ridiculous and undefined measure that they are completely safe.

Look at the reality. The WHO estimates that 8 million people die annually around the world from smoking-related illness? Where are the millions, or even just thousands, of vape-related deaths? There is simply no comparison.

So all those people who object to vaping, for whatever trivial reason such as not liking the smell. Do you really feel that your petty aversion merits restricting what will, in all likelihood, be recognised one day as the single biggest public health success since penicillin?

Agree with you.
I'll stop vaping when alcohol is banned

I cringe every time I see an adult puffing away on on a vape.

The fact is vaping is far, far less harmful to health and way less objectionable than tobacco smoking.

There is no tar to cause harm, vapes don't produce nicotine staining to teeth, fingers, walls etc.
The vapour will not make your clothes stink.

I totally agree that those aimed at children should be banned, along with single use.

But vaping is surely the greatest step forward away from smoking.

I agree with this.

Sorry, can’t see any heart attack links about normal vape use. There is a reference in the BBC article to cardiac arrest, but that’s about dodgy vapes with spice in them.

(Not to minimise the issue, but when I hear about the dangers of spice I just can’t help thinking of Dune, the Bene Gesserit and the Fremen.)

"There is a reference in the BBC article to cardiac arrest, but that’s about dodgy vapes with spice in them."

Ah, fair enough. I've read elsewhere (and some time ago, thinking about it) about the connection with nicotine overdose and cardiac arrest due to the fact that nicotine is actually a poison and over-use/high dosage causes the heart to beat faster/too fast because it is a stimulant. It stimulates the heart too much and the heart can't cope.

This was before the nicotine content restrictions were brought in for eliquids and you could buy 'neat' nicotine concentrate to dilute. All very unregulated at that time because it was a new thing and you could buy tanks holding a lot more than 2ml too. I think before disposable vapes were invented.

Then it got regulated. Then disposable vapes were invented to take all the hassle out of weighing and measuring. And then a whole vape-culture monster was invented.

They're like pacifiers for adults & horrendous for the environment. Completely banned in some countries for good reason

Right, pacifiers like water slurping? I wouldn’t ban water slurping but I would tax it heavily.

Er no.. like dummies 🤷‍♀️

So…like water slurping.

🙄

Why, would you cringe at someone wearing a nicotine patch or using gum?
Fuck it, maybe they should just go back to smoking and then people can whinge about that I mean who cares if you're killing yourself with cigarettes, someone might cringe at you if you try and quit with a vape