To think the US system if repeating grades is weird?

[llamajohn]

Like you could repeat 1, 2 and 3 and be what? 12/13 in the 5th grade (peers would be 8-9) - how is that helpful to anyone?

IME of working in primary and secondary, through every year group from 1 to 11, it is unusual (though not impossible) for children who are really struggling, to turn things around to the extent you describe in years 5 and 6. I'm amazed that you know lots of dc who have done that. What I have seen is children who struggle getting further and further behind as they are relentlessly progressed through a curriculum that becomes impossible for them to understand. By the time they get to secondary they have just accepted their fate of never understanding stuff and stop trying.

Also, mixed ability teaching has become the fashion. In theory it gives the children who are struggling, the opportunity to progress because they aren't being held back in a lower set. In reality, I think it means they are in lessons where they can see other people understanding what they can't, reinforcing their poor self image and switching them off even more. Then we wonder why they are disengaged and disruptive.

That's interesting, and also makes a lot of sense. Some 4 year olds are a lot more ready than other 4 year olds.

Same as kids in most other countries?

I just wonder what happens when the kids reach 16/18 and haven't progressed beyond the system they use. So they only get to grade 9, for example at this age... Do they leave, or follow through?

Not from the US. But it is a thing here aswell. Teacher and parents discuss it together and usually come to agreement. If parents disgaree then I'm sure there is a process

Here it is somewhat of a big deal to he held back but usually there is a reason why they can't move forward and it will benefit the child and there has been discussions through the school year.

@LuckysDadsHat you don’t mean ND children. You mean children who have lower academic abilities. I can assure you that plenty of ND children are in the highest achieving groups.

EDIT ignore this. I misread

Most other countries DO have the repeat system, OP.

In terms of compulsory school ages, some places actually have compulsory school levels to complete. In my country you must achieve the equivalent exam to GCSEs - usually done at age 16. However it’s not unusual for 17 or 18 year olds to sit them for the first time at that age after having repeated one or two years.

There is no option to leave, say, with only grade 8 (normal age 14) if you’ve turned 16 and decided to stop going to school, because it’s compulsory to achieve the equivalent of that exam before you can enter the workplace.

For students who have genuine difficulties achieving that exam, and would be at risk of repeating over and over, there are “practical schools”, a bit like colleges or apprenticeships, where they can take more tailored courses that would give them an equivalent qualification and direct them towards a job, but it’s rare that children are allowed to fully leave the educational system just because they were held back.

Nobody bats an eyelid at an 18 year old sitting GCSEs with their 16 yo classmates.

Edit to add that if you were to leave education altogether before achieving the minimum required level / exams, you’d have lots of trouble claiming benefits or entering programmes designed to get young people into the workplace. It’s not a get out of school card - you must complete your secondary level in order to either progress towards uni exams, a more apprentice-like schooling system, start working or claim job-seekers allowance.

@llamajohn I think I read somewhere that in some parts of America if grades have been repeated they can carry on High School until age 20 ish and if they still haven't "graduated" then that's it - they have aged out.
They do have the option of the "ged" (different names in different states) - which is basically a graduation equivalent test. From my knowledge of American telly (😁) that's a multiple choice general knowledge test.
They can do that at a community college.
(you also have teens that have reached legal leaving age - which can be 15 in some states - go and take the GED so they can "drop out" of school)

I think the U.K. system of pushing children along to the next year even if they don’t have a grasp of the curriculum is much worse.

Not sure why you are calling it the US system. This is what happens in most countries. It's the UK which is more the exception here.

By not surviving?

I have a friend whose child repeated reception. He’s 13 now in year 7, so only a few years ago. It seems to have worked really well for him. He’s very well adjusted in secondary school now, though he is huge compared to the other year 7s.

That said, I grew up in the US, and had a friend who skipped a year because she was SO BRILLIANT! She was really immature for her cohort, bombed out of uni and married an absolute twat at 20. She sorted herself out and is now with a lovely guy and 2 dc and in a career she loves and seemingly happy and well adjusted. But the pressure of skipping ahead didn’t really serve her I don’t think.

I think it’s a very individual decision.

There were some complete utter thickos in DS's primary. So dumb the school had to cheat for the year 6 SATs and tells them the answers

We need more options to repeat years here - the myth that we can teach a 4 year range of ability in one class to any degree of success is one of the problems in schools.

Agree that if you need to repeat multiple years there are serious problems and other interventions are required.

As it is we just pass the lack of attainment on with no stop til exam years and too many kids slip through to GCSEs/NAT 5s with inadequate interventions.

In the US you have the right to stay in school till 21 (this is important for special education students). However kids who have repeated grades multiple times have high dropout rates.

It's better that a child has a solid foundation of education rather than shuttling through the system simply because of their age.

It's the same in Austria where I live. It works well. It's often the first class which is repeated and that is a good thing because some children are just not ready for school and learning and need a bit longer to mature. That extra year makes a big difference.
I think they can repeat a maximum of two years though I'm not 100% sure about that. The system is quite complex. There are various different types of secondary schools. There are also polytechnic schools which cover the 9th year group and are usually attended by those who have struggled at the middle school and will go on to do an apprenticeship combined with vocational school after the 9th school year.

I think it’s a good idea as I suspect that kids who struggle at school come to a point where the difference between them and their peers just gets wider and wider where as if they repeated a year then that gulf might remain the same or decrease because they’ve got that extra year to catch up.

One of my old colleagues had an October born child and because she is obsessed with thinking she has bred a genuis wanted him to get on, she found a private school willing to take him a year early. So he went at 3 and didn't turn 4 until the October.

So going early does happen.

If a child is failing grades year after year they surely have special needs rather than ending up 13 in a class of 9 year olds?

It makes sense. What's the point in kids continually progressing through school when they can't grasp the material?

You should need to pass each year before you can progress - obviously with the leaving age of 18 still in place, so wherever you're up to at that point, you don't need to continue any further if you don't want to.

It just means each pupil gets as much of an education as possible, rather than being dragged along and passing absolutely nothing whatsoever.

Well, yes they can repeat but not endlessly. I think it's a maximum of twice.

I don't think anywhere they regularly have kids repeating every year, but I think it would be an interesting debate if we said to kids in primary if you don't achieve a certain standard by the end of year 6 you repeat it or go to summer school (there would need to be exceptions for some SEN etc) and maybe again at about year 9 you may focus the minds of some children who don't engage properly with school. I expect it would be rarely used, but having it as an option may well improve focus and, with it, achievement in the classroom.

I think that there is a fallacy here - that a child who does not make the ‘minimum expected progress’ in a given year will progress better if they repeat that year. It may be true in Reception- that a child joining at just turned 4 from no previous provision at all (so no nursery, no pre-school, perhaps less than ideal hone situation) may benefit from 2 years in Reception just to develop key social, motor and language skills. However, a child who is older than that who isn’t making minimum progress in a year has a barrier to learning that needs something different, not the same again. So all I can see would be that either children would process smoothly OR children would be forever ‘take grade, repeat grade, maybe scrape through, take next grade, repeat grade’.

I assume there’s a limit though and and you don’t have 17 yr olds in kindergarten.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing as long as limited to 1 year. Would potentially help those young in year, missed school for illness etc.
It would probably also help with motivation in secondary the messing around cba types, incentive to work to stay with friends.
After 1 year if still not meeting targets to move up then there’s clearly some additional needs and they need alternative provision.
Would take a massive shake up and funding though.

How does that work with children who would never be able to pass the standard or equivalent exam that you describe? Are there any safeguards in place for them at all?