To think dressage is cruel and also ludicrous?

[itstheendoftheworldasweknowitnow]

Prompted by Charlotte DuJardin’s suspension today. What a ridiculous sport dressage is - and how cruel to the poor horse who doesn’t want to mince around anyway. They always look so uncomfortable doing it. At least jumping and racing seem like something a horse would enjoy or do naturally.

I'm not saying either is great but this post shows massive ignorance

It’s disappointing to see so many people trotting out the old excuses - it is entirely possible to force a horse to do something it doesn’t want to do, and you can certainly coerce it. Horses are largely compliant animals.

Many horses will continue to try to oblige their owners despite being in pain, or uncomfortable in their work. We have an obligation to horses not to put undue pressure on them to perform for our egos.

Unless horse owners and riders admit that and accept that a lot of what is done in the name of horse sport is questionably ethical at best, we have no real hope of making things better. And I do believe it is possible to ride horses ethically, but not when there is money, fame and kudos at stake.

@FourLeggedBuckers

that's the thing isn't it. When there's so much at stake people are always going to push the limits.

I don't know how you solve it when the 'equipment' is a horse. Having regulations don't solve it, slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket doesn't solve it... ( and that's AFTER the abuse, so REALLY doesn't solve it...)

All I can think of is to stop it being an Olympic/top level competition, but the Govt won't do that while the GB team does so well @ there's SO much money in it

😢😢

Actually, they do very much get the thrill of galloping, when they are turned out in their fields - ideally with their best buddies - but also when they are hacked out. Nobody expects a horse to train intensively every day - it is alternated with other types of exercise.

Anyway, I agree with pps who have said that dressage done correctly is based on natural moves - albeit taken a bit further. (I struggle to maintain that position when watching haute école but others may differ[. But piaffe, passage, tempi changes, pirouettes are all done spontaneously in the wild, or in a field when a horse is expressing himself/herself naturally. Dressage is asking a horse to produce these moves (perhaps exaggeratedly[, and maintain them for longer.

Apparently what was happening in the infamous video was a training session aiming at obtaining piaffe. I have watched a few seconds only and from what I could see, what was going on there was never going to lead to a piaffe. It looked like it was aiming to instil fear of the trainer/fear of the lunging whip. I have never seen piaffe taught that way and nor would it make any sense to try to achieve piaffe like that, even on a very green horse - not that a green horse is in any way ready for piaffe.

It's very upsetting when a rider whose career you have followed and whom you hold in high regard has been exposed to be less than you imagined.

This is exactly it, what is the likelihood that this is the first time she’s acted like that whilst training? I’d say most definitely not! Just the first time she was caught on camera. Awful behaviour!

This isn’t the first time she’s come under scrutiny.

Charlotte said: “I’m obviously absolutely devastated – nothing like this has ever happened to me before. The health and welfare of my horses is always my number one priority, but of course I accept the decision.”

Funny how in 2019 she drew blood from a horse…

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/britain-lose-silver-medal-charlotte-dujardin-eliminated-european-championships-694352

Racing is the worst of it. The horses are still juvenile and developing when they race so are incredibly prone to life-limiting lameness when older. Steeplechasing frequently leads to accidents and deaths. Abuse of animals in training is rife, and the horses that don’t make it often end up in the European meat market.

What Charlotte Dujardin did was cruel and inexcusable. There is no room for abuse of horses in any training regime.

I think this is a "we'll never know" thing... but I wonder if the horses actually enjoy it. They get exercise, hopefully not whipped/spurred, lots of attention and pampering. I know we can't ask them but they never seem in distress.

I don't know anything about horses at all, but I can see why racing or jumping might be fun for both horse and rider. I don't understand the point of dressage.

Not over jumps, not carrying people and not over a long distance.
As a horse owner/lover and proud owner of 4 ex-racehorses I hate racing and I hate more the excuses people use for. Backing and riding horses between 1-2yrs old etc. Using "they live like kings" when horses don't want to live like kings, they want to live like horses ie living outside, in herds with constant access to forage. There is a reason why 90% of horses in training have ulcers: stress!

We do know: stress ulcers and stereotypical behaviours such as weaving, cribbing and box walking. Skeletal issues such as kissing spines etc.

Agree these are all wrong

No, they are not

From my limited understanding, dressage isn't cruel, but they way it is taught can be. That should be your target OP.

What you don’t seem aware of is that Carl and Charlotte have made a softer and more gentle way of dressage riding much more acceptable rather than the dominant Germanic system that was popular

There is a split in dressage between 'competitive' dressage as you would predominantly see in the olympics, grand prix events etc and 'classical dressage'.

Classical dressage - although certainly not problem free - promotes working with the horses natural movements in a force-free way. Many of those who train in classical dressage don't bother entering dressage competitions because many judges (including those at the highest level) reward very problematic riding and training. It has got to the point that often the only way you can achieve high marks is by training in a way which will damage the horse physically and mentally.

Dressage as is generally understood is an absolute disgrace and the FEI has shown itself to be absolutely unwilling to promote and protect the welfare of horses.

I have also been absolutely horrified at the equestrian communities reaction over the Charlotte Dujardin - the excusing, minimising and deflection has been so disheartening to see and I've seen it across all levels.

At this point, if we as horse riders find our entire sport being questioned by the public and losing our social license then we only have ourselves to blame.

Carl has, I'm not convinced about Charlotte although I used to be a fan. There have been reports about blood in the mouth etc.

Most animal ownership is cruel if you think about it. Humans want it, animals don't. Hence why they need to be "broken" and "trained". It isn't natural. No one wants to be a captive. If alive, they should be wild and free.

Blood in mouth, blood from spurs, overly tight noseband etc.....it has been known for a long time but unfortunately it has taken indisputable evidence at a time where there would be wider public interest for action to be taken.

I agree that the closer you look at our dealings with animals the less defensible they become. Dogs may be an exception as they have sought out humans and evolved alongside us but that doesn’t excuse the selective breeding of them for companionship.

IMO the issues with any form of animal competitions - and the only two I really know about are horses and dogs, so that’s basically what I’m referring to - come at elite level. There’s nothing wrong in principle with dressage or showjumping or dog agility. There are fear-free, humane ways to teach all disciplines and lots of evidence that animals enjoy them (albeit because they have been selectively bred to do so). The issues come when you get to elite level and movements or activities become more and more extreme, and there’s so much pressure to jump higher/faster/get those movements more extreme and precise. Then people can be tempted to cut corners and train using inhumane methods, or there’s an argument that the sport itself becomes inhumane (see the arguments about horse racing jump height etc).

I don’t have the answer, but I think the principle is that dressage and other activities are not inherently cruel - but what they become at elite level might be. It’s similar to the extremes human athletes go to. There’s a world of difference between going to amateur ballet lessons and being a professional dancer in terms of the things you put your body through, and the treatment you might get from a demanding coach.

And yet, if I go for a walk and sit down randomly somewhere, my high-drive, very prey-driven dogs will quite quickly stop what they were doing and hang out within twenty feet of me.

They don't want to be left behind. They have had ample opportunities in their lives to fuck off, but they always come back. Dogs have been bred down the millennia to want to be with people.

I agree. They have been bred and trained. Like the horses in dressage and racing.

A taxi driver told me the same thing about a dolphin park he went to in Mexico. Apparently they left the "gates open" every night for the dolphin to swin out into the ocean if they wanted. But the dolphin always came back to the park because they enjoyed it.

But what is 'cruel' about it?
Even untrained dogs will hang out near people, even when they're not hungry.

Absolutely does not excuse that behaviour!

I find it extraordinary that many within the equestrian community are rushing to defend her. That's typical of the horse world: every time someone questions or criticizes abuse the response is always 'what you don't seem aware of...' or 'only people riding at that level could understand....'

No it's abuse. Plain and simple.