Am I accidentally involving myself in some kind of scam?

[SlimeSuspect]

I am a self employed small business.

Client calls me ahead of an event I am booked with him and tells me his accounts department have accidentally paid me twice via a bank transfer. I have checked my account and the duplicate payment is definitely there. Client asks can I please send the duplicate payment back, but not to the account of origin, via PayPal to his personal (non business) account? I don’t have a business PayPal account, so would have to do this through my personal PayPal account.

Is this usual? Should I be suspicious? It seems odd for a business to request a payment be refunded via a personal PayPal account. I have spoken to my bank and also PayPal who have both advised me not to do what he is requesting.

Most alarming of all is that my client is reluctant to move the conversation from text message to email (despite repeated requests, and the original contracts being arranged that way).

Does this scream ‘scammer’? Obviously I have already been paid, so won’t lose out financially, but I clearly don’t want to be involved in someone else’s dodgy dealings.

Also, before anyone accuses me of dishonest intentions, I have no intention of not transferring the over payment back to the correct place. My bank can’t disclose the account of origin, so that would need to come from the bank that sent the payment. I have asked him for the account details, to no avail.

Any thoughts on what might be going on here, and how I should proceed? I will have to work with this guy this weekend, so am worried!

@SlimeSuspect just tell him you don’t get involved in finance stuff but the bank will reverse any duplicate payment or pay it back to the originating account. End of discussion.

I assume this person is the owner of the busimess??? If so not scammer but tax dodger.

You need to refund back through your bank but maybe do it once youve done the work...

My advice is to ignore his requests outright from now on.

I work in financial services.

If the overpayment is a genuine error, the accounts department will catch up at month end and formally write to you.

To be on the safe side, I’d also be inclined to change your online banking passwords and give your bank a call just in case there are any unusual withdrawals instructed using your account details.

Trust your gut! And worst case - their error - they chase!

Email the client direct and ask what is going on.

@WalkingThroughTreacle hits the nail the head.
do nothing right now. Wait until funds have cleared twice into your bank before instructing them to return that payment to the sender.
Stop responding to texts. State all communications must be via email henceforth and block his no.

Suss as fuck.

Return tne amount iwing to the original account and say that the bank blah blah.

Then ...

Send the bank an email recapping the situation and explaining indetail what they said and what you've done. Arse covered. You could also contact tbe company. Send an ambiguous email detailing the return of funds and quite the conversation and say with whom you had it.

I would deffo send a similar email to my acvountant should the faecum hit the fan. It may make you look like a fuss pot, better that than a convict.

It won't happen again after that.

Wait until you receive an email from the verified email address of the company you deal with requesting the overpayment. Then request an email confirmation of the bank and sort code with an attached company letterhead with a company stamp. Only then ask your bank to refund it. Tell your contact that 'policy' means it has to be done that way and just keep repeating the same.

I work in an accounts department, and we do occasionally receive accidental overpayments or duplicate payments from an existing customer into our bank account. The only way we would deal with that is by emailing them and asking for their bank details so we can refund the overpayment back into their business bank account. Those bank details will be checked and confirmed by the bank as a correct match when we process it. We certainly wouldn't entertain any other kind of request, or other way of repaying the funds.

@SlimeSuspect Yes, I think that they are trying to pull a fast one here, and have probably input your invoice twice on their system (or faked another look-alike), and then paid both out of the business. They then ask you to refund one payment elsewhere, and not back into the business. What they are doing is moving money out of the business by the back door, evading tax, and if they are VAT registered, they will fraudently recover double the input VAT.

Please don't do what they are asking you to do. Otherwise, if they get investigated and fined, HMRC could come after you too - they have quite surprising powers.

yes this. This ought to mean he never tries it on again with you.

Thanks all. There’s absolutely no way I’m sending it via my PayPal account. I just needed a few opinions on what might be going on. In the meantime, I think my questions (& reluctance) have alerted him that I’m on to him. He has now sent me details for the company account…which I will check thoroughly before making payment. And then, only after my bank have asserted that nothing will happen to the payment intended for me. Definitely reckon it’s either tax avoidance or him trying to cream extra funds off the top by declaring my services cost double (to someone higher up than him perhaps)!

Is this usual?

No

Should I be suspicious?

Hell, yes!

I have spoken to my bank and also PayPal who have both advised me not to do what he is requesting.

They know what they are talking about.

This is such a common scam. Although this does seem slightly more thought out than the usual version.

This is how the scam normally goes:

You are selling something on ebay or etsy or anywhere else like that (or providing a service of some sort).

A customer then sends you more than you are asking for. They say something like "Oh sorry, I made a mistake. Will you please send the overpayment to my friend at this account xxxxxx"

In reality, they have gained access to the bank account of an innocent victim and sent the money from her account to you. They are then asking you to send a proportion of this stolen money on to their accomplice.

You are being used for money laundering. If you search for the term "money mule" you will find plenty of examples of this. Just two examples from The Guardian last year:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/15/young-people-warned-not-to-be-exploited-as-money-mules-for-uk-criminal-gangs

Young people warned not to be exploited as ‘money mules’ for UK criminal gangs

West Midlands commissioner and HSBC say moving illegally gained money is an offence that helps serious crime

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jun/12/older-people-hired-as-money-mules-by-gangs-as-cost-of-living-crisis-bites

Older people hired as ‘money mules’ by gangs as cost of living crisis bites

More people in their 50s and 60s are being recruited to allow their bank accounts to be used in scams

A growing number of people aged in their 50s and 60s are allowing their bank accounts to be used to move money illegally.

Fraud experts say that among the increasing number being recruited as “money mules” – those who allow their bank details to be used to transfer criminals’ cash – are older account holders, as well as business owners who use company bank accounts.

Money mules are often not actually involved in crime, but allow their accounts be used as part of scams where cash is shifted quickly from one bank to another. In many cases these have been teenagers and students attracted by promises of gifts, or cash, in return.

But the cost of living crisis has, in part, fuelled the rise in older people taking part in the fraud, says Tristan Prince at Experian, the credit reference agency.

Just refund to payment account

Make sure payment has fully cleared too - and remember they CAN request it be returned so alert your bank

Yes scammer...if overpaid repay to original location BUT make sure it's cleared first. Be careful here!

It's a classic money laundering ruse in the layering stage. Send it back to the account of origin. Bin the client.

Search for Saul explains money laundering on YouTube.

Have you picked up a phone and actually spoken to your client?
not on the number the person is messaging you from but from a number you already have and have used before?

or contacted the client using the normal means of doing so?

scammers can spoof contact details to make it look genuine but it may not even be the person you think it is on the end of the message.

this is definitely a scam of some sort, whether it’s a criminal impersonating your client or it’s your client being dodgy it’s hard to tell.

Do you have an accountant? It's very dodgy moving money in this way. I'd pass this on to my accountant to deal with, suggest you do same or stand firm.

Can you just send it back to his business account and have done with it? How important is this connection? Hcan you email regardless? Or phone?

Like everyone has said don't do it.
It sounds like he's trying to steal the money from his company.

What will happen when the accounts department contact you wanting their money back

I 'know' someone who did this and embezzled thousands. I always wondered how she managed to do it without anyone being aware sooner but this makes sense now. All looks legit to the company books then the money straight into personal account.

I work in finance and would only refund to the bank account issued due to AML requirements. Does the incoming payment not show their bank details?

Phone the accounts department directly for the bank details.

I work for a bank in branch and regularly deal with things like this.

Something is not right. As a previous poster said, please check your own accounts to make sure the money hasn't been moved from there, that's very common, they have your internet banking, move the money from your own savings to your own current account and then claim they paid you twice.

Another thing, speak to them in person or over the phone on a trusted number - not just what they've contacted you on. If it's a scammer it could be the companies emails/mobile number has been compromised and intercepted and you might not actually be speaking to the company/contact you think you are.

Finally, there is something called "confirmation of payee" when you pay someone, this checks the name you input actually matches the name on the account you're paying - although this is a good sign you're paying the right person, still be wary, scammers are EXTREMELY clever. As I said, my first port of call personally and also if you came into my branch to make the payment, I would be phoning the company on a trusted number different to how the messages have come through

Yes this screams scammer.

Be helpful and pleasant but say you are not allowed to make transactions that way. Tell the customer to go via his bank and request the transaction to be reversed from their end. The bank will contact you for permission to reverse the transaction which your finance people can grant.

How did this work ? The scammer already had access to your accounts ?