Basic principles to teach our children regarding equality

[partygate]

It is upsetting to read some of the stories women on here have been telling. I would like to think we will see more equality between men and women in the years to come. Unfortunately, we are not there yet. I think it’s important to teach our children basic legal principles and boundaries.

1. If you are a woman, your life partner is almost as important and, occasionally, more important than your education/career prospects. Partner well.

If you chose a life partner who does not support you and leaves the majority of household activities and childcare to you, you will struggle to maintain or succeed in your chosen career. Men simply have to do well in their careers because it’s almost inevitable their female partners will support them, women need to have a supportive partner and to do well.

1. If you want to be married and he won’t marry you, leave him. It’s not just a ‘piece of paper’, no one would say that about a will. You are entitled to be an equal partner and for both of you go to ‘all in’ with marriage and children. Marriage provides extremely important legal protection, particularly if a wife’s career suffers through having children. The exception to this is if the female is the breadwinner or her career will not be impacted. Sadly, this only happens in a very small minority of cases. Why is he allowed to say I don’t want marriage but somehow you’re being unreasonable if you do want marriage? There is no compromise.

1. There is NO such thing as common law marriage. Despite what you read on the internet. You’re either married or you’re nothing in the eyes of the law. He can walk away without providing you any financial support and his obligations to pay financial support to the children are very limited. Other countries provide some protection to non-married partners, the UK does not. If the house is in his name, he can leave you without a penny, regardless of the fact you’ve sacrificed your career to support his/have children.

1. If you do decide to have children without being married, the tradition is that children have their mother’s name. Not his.

1. If a man indicates he may leave you once a child is born or will not be a good partner, listen to this. Do not put him on the birth certificate. This will not impact child maintenance. It will allow you to travel with the child, make medical decisions and choose the school you want.

1. It is not acceptable for a partner to be unable to care for their own children. If he is able to hold down a job, he can look after his children alone. Otherwise, he has no business having children. Do not be the expert in all matters child related as the bulk will fall to you. The starting point is that both parties should share parenting and household activities 50/50. If one parent chooses to be a full time carer, then both parents should have equal free time. It should not be the case that all parenting falls only to one parent so that the working parent can ‘rest’ when they are home.

This is not an anti-man post. There are many wonderful men out there. Don’t accept the poorly behaved ones. While there may be an equal number of poorly behaved women, this tends to impact men in a far less draconian way financially.

It depends on family beliefs to be honest. It's not one size firs all.

I believe children should have their fathers name regardless but that's just how I feel, doesn't mean it's right.

50/50 house chores...again depends on who works the most

Boundaries are not the same for every family/person

Sorry if you’ve had a bad experience?

I don’t know where you are that children traditionally take their mother’s name.

They have traditional taken the mothers name. It's just traditionally, a woman takes her husbands name on marriage and has the child after marriage so her name is now the same as the husbands/fathers.

But unmarried mothers in the past would have had the baby recorded under their name Or hospital tags woukd say baby mums surname until a name is chosen.

It seems a new thing where you don't get married and give the baby the man's name.

It’s very traditional to give the baby the mother’s surname. When you are in hospital the baby has ‘baby mother’s surname’ on the band. It’s just that some women take the name of their husband if they are married so therefore the baby has the father’s name by default.

Blanket advice to women to insist on marriage is unhelpful. Its not going to do you much good if you are the higher earner or have more assets than your partner, is it? I know of women who heartily wish they had never married a man who has left them and is claiming his half of their inheritance, previously owned property, and proceeds of their more successful careers. The advice to women should never be based on the premis a man will be their source of financial security, so make sure you end up with half of what he has. It should be, look after yourself, make sure you can provide for yourself independently and protect what is yours.

Mine are both boys and probably a bit too young for anything too in depth (8 and 4)

So far they are learning:

Everyone who lives in the house has to (age appropriately) help keep it tidy.

Ask before hugging people

Most healthy grown ups have jobs but for some grown ups their work is looking after small children or volunteering and that's just as important and helpful

Don't hit girls - not that either of them ever have, but they do like playfighting/wrestling with other boys. The way I explained it to DS1 is that everyone is the same size now but when you are older you will be bigger and stronger than girls so that's why you shouldn't hit them.

Frowningprovidence

Der! Was being a bit thick, thinking of my own, married circumstances.

Its not blanket advice. It literally says "unless the woman is the breadwinner... "

It seems a new thing where you don't get married and give the baby the man's name.

I've know women do this purely because if they do eventually get married they want the family to have the same surname but not the faff of changing it.

My advice would be - marry a woman… everything much more equal in our house without the constraint of ‘traditional’ this or that or gender roles…

@MrsSkylerWhite I haven’t had a bad experience at all, I’m happily married with a supportive and equal partner. But I see too many instances where this is not the case. I see other school parents worrying about exam results but showing their daughters that it’s ok to struggle in a career because your husband doesn’t pull his weight at home.

also to the poster saying it’s blanket advice - I have expressly caveated it by saying this does not apply if you’re the breadwinner or career won’t be impacted. This is very much aimed at women who will suffer economically if they have children and would equally apply to any stay at home father. The issue is that most of the time it’s women who suffer economically

Just bring up your daughter not to take any crap and to expect respect.

This

if you are a woman, your life partner is almost as important and, occasionally, more important than your education/career prospects. Partner well.

is an unpalatable but undeniable truth.

I’d go further and say it’s generally more important

How about teaching girls that not having a partner or children is also a valid choice in life, in fact there are many advantages to that situation. This is assuming that girls = needing a partner + having babies. Isn't it time to get away from that assumption?

This. My DP, perhaps especially my DF, drilled this into me. As a result, I don’t stand for rubbish.

The number one priority should be to get a good education and a good job. Marriage is useful as insurance if you plan to take time off to care for children or if your spouse is the breadwinner but it’s not a silver bullet and as a PP mentioned if the woman is the higher earner marriage is a dangerous road to go down.

If you can support yourself you will be in the best position regardless of whether or not your partner is cut out for it. If he is it’s a bonus but if he’s not you can manage without him.

Focus on the job and the rest should fall into place.

In Scotland, it is possible for an unmarried partner to make a financial claim following breakdown of a relationship, in some circumstances

@TemuSpecialBuy

I’d go further and say it’s generally more important

Only if you are planning to depend on someone else for money. If you have your own money it becomes irrelevant. Make your own money and keep it.

I've know women do this purely because if they do eventually get married they want the family to have the same surname but not the faff of changing it

Reminds me of my colleague who voted for Brexit so she wouldn't have the faff of changing her money when she went abroad.

If we want to teach our children about equality, I think it's best to model it at home

Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words

Having a baby with someone ties you to them for the rest of your life, and statistically at least half of the time that turns out to be a really bad thing. There is no worse choice you can make than to saddle yourself and your children with a bad father. You could end up miserable, impoverished or dead, and that’s not over-dramatising.

And yes, compared to most women throughout most of history we have an enormous amount of choice in how we live our lives as long as we retain that independence and control. It’s the most precious gift to be in charge of your own destiny and happiness- don’t give it away to fit other people’s expectations.

I disagree. It’s very difficult for a women to be successful in a career if she doesn’t have a supportive partner but one who sees running the house and kids as her role regardless of the hours she does. I’ve seen too many take a back seat career wise because it’s not possible to be both parents and have a high profile career. I’ve friends who find it easier to be a single
parent.

I thought this was the advice you thought should be given to our daughters? Because when they are at a point in life where they could benefit from advice, it's highly unlikely that either they or their partner will be the 'breadwinner' as surely they will just be two people at roughly the same point in their careers, both with everything to play for and neither with any certainty as to their trajectory. Your advice presupposes our daughters will earn less and be dependent on men. I'd prefer to advise mine that this doesn't need to be the case and to look to her own finances rather than having to try and secure a share of a partners after giving up her own opportunities to facilitate his.

@partygate

I disagree. It’s very difficult for a women to be successful in a career if she doesn’t have a supportive partner but one who sees running the house and kids as her role regardless of the hours she does. I’ve seen too many take a back seat career wise because it’s not possible to be both parents and have a high profile career. I’ve friends who find it easier to be a single parent.

Absolutely agree with this.

But the more money you are making in the first place the stronger the case you have to not have your career derailed after you have children.

You see women on here all the time justifying their decision to stop working because “he earned so much more than me” or the killer: “it made sense for our family” (ie it made sense for him and I had no leverage).

A lot of this is men wearing women down because they want a facilitator at home to make their lives smoother. And women not being able to justify continuing a job which on paper makes little difference to the household.

If you are earning at parity with him or more than him in the first place the rationale for stopping work is off the table. Yes you may get some bellyaching from him about this but it’s much easier to make the case for not leaving your job if your financial contribution is meaningful.

As someone who earns double my husband (circa 200k) I disagree.

if you have a good job, children and a husband who wants to hamstring you with his weaponised incompetence you are in for a bumpy ride and will certainly never reach your full potential…

like I said it’s an unpalatable truth I’d have argued against…probably up until my 2nd child