Unless Labour stand up to the public, we will never have functioning services

[Rainbowsponge]

Which, obviously, will never happen.

Anybody who works in a public service - schools, NHS, any government department - will tell you the public have become more entitled, more aggressive, and are absolutely bombarding them with their rights to complain, have decisions double checked, have their case reviewed again, call meetings, and so on.

You only need to read on here the sort of minor incident a parent will then hop onto their emails and bombard their child’s teacher with messages about. It takes them 2 minutes to fire off an angry email, but this then sparks a chain of events which takes the teacher a long time (in addition to all their other work) to sort out and go through the relevant processes.

So, AIBU to think rather than throwing more money at bloating the systems, the government need to give people in public facing roles more powers to simply refuse to engage with trivial or irrelevant complaints?

It would also have the effect of allowing people to focus on their actual jobs and therefore reduce waiting lists, backlogs and so on. It feels like this culture of expecting instant and endless interaction from public servants is breaking the system as much as the underfunding.

I don’t think your issue here actually has anything whatsoever to do with Labour being elected OP. Very forcefully shoe-horned in here!

Well yes, because we've commodified everything, even essential stuff like education and healthcare, and so we behave like consumers not citizens.

@Rainbowsponge

So, AIBU to think rather than throwing more money at bloating the systems, the government need to give people in public facing roles more powers to simply refuse to engage with trivial or irrelevant complaints?

Yes, YABU. And entitled by the sound of it.

This would be unlawful, first of all.

And who is to decide what’s trivial? If your salary is paid by the people who complain, it’s rather cheeky to demand the right not to listen to them if they’re unhappy. Don’t you think?

If you go to a hairdresser and aren’t happy with the service you’ve paid for, would you be happy if they told you to get lost?

The truth is that public bodies are top heavy with incompetent management and rife with risk aversion (hence the multiple ‘assessments’ and passing the bucket). But ignoring complaints really isn’t the answer.

Perhaps.Bit it’s also about how the money is spent.

But there are multiple cases every month of public service bodies not doing their job when they should (and when fixing an issue would be cost effective) and then having to pay £££ of public money in compensation and to tackle the problem that has become a lot worse.

Social housing being one example:

Fixing a leak in a property costs usually less than £1000. But councils will do nothing for years and then have to pay tens of thousands of £££ in compensation. It happens all the time and nobody learns a lesson. Like public money is free money to spend.

https://www.housing-ombudsman.org.uk/2024/03/14/lewisham-councils-failings-in-damp-and-mould-complaints/

People abuse the NHS because it’s free at point of use. That is a huge part of the problem and the right to complain, sue them or whatever is a big part of that.

If your salary is paid by the people who complain, it’s rather cheeky to demand the right not to listen to them if they’re unhappy. Don’t you think?

Many don’t even work..!

But there is. Either in court or if it’s a complaint, when it’s decided.

You can’t demand that the public are deprived of the right to raise concerns. If you’re in the clear and done nothing wrong, then the complaint won’t be upheld.

And if unreasonable complaints are being upheld, then you need to look up to find the source of your problems.

Saw some old film from the 1960s where the general public were able to go right up to the door of No 10 and take family photos. People were asking Wow whats changed
Whats changed is that politicians used to do less stuff that really pissed people off Unlike now

I really don’t think that’s the reason! Thatcher installed the gates to Downing St after terrorist attacks and threats.

Agree. And im glad you brought it up Every time i do im accused of bringing social housing into everything.

Housing associations have no accountability

You think politicians did more for people in the 60s? When the death penalty was legal, women needed a man to do virtually everything for them, welfare payments literally just stopped you from starving and that was it, and there was no sleaze such as Profumo etc? Are we living on the same planet?

But that won’t be because someone has sat back and thought ‘hmmm nah, can’t be arsed’. Red tape - brought about in part by endless complaining and the need to do things a certain way to avoid this even if it’s arduous and inefficient - means this is now the system we have created for ourselves.

How do you know? Have you actually read the decision? It’s quite revealing - the level of incompetence is staggering indeed.

Red tape are regulations brought by the governments not the public.

The law on repairing obligations is very clear.

And the law hasn’t been followed. It really isn’t that difficult to arrange a contractor to fix a leak. Especially for a large social landlord spending ££££ every year on repairing contracts.

I think you’re heavily underestimating the level of mismanagement of funds and plain inability/unwillingness to do a job and/or incompetence.

I come from a former communist state where we used to have a saying loosely translated into ‘whether you stand up or whether you lie down, you’re going to get paid anyway’. Meaning it doesn’t matter if you actually do your job, you’re going to get paid. There’s a lot of this mentality in the public sector in the UK too.

In the private sector, if you don’t deliver, your job is at risk. Not sure why it should be any different in the public sector.

Equally if you don’t work and pay tax, why should you get anything from the state?

Well, but it’s you who seems to have a problem with the fact that if you work in the public sector you should be answerable to the public. Not me.

So is this your argument? Or would you like to be able to dismiss everyone’s complaints as ‘trivial’ irrespective of the level of their contribution?

You are also funded by the taxpayer, just like the people on benefits.

So the only added value you produce is through the quality of the service you provide. Including to the people who are taxpayer funded. They get less money than you because they aren’t expected to produce any added value at this moment in time, whether it’s because they’re disabled or looking for work.

@rumnraisins Our HA is using a computer system that has parallels with Horizon.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5109616-to-think-social-housing-tenants-need-their-horizon-moment-and-lessons-have-not-been-learned?reply=136446947

MN People in social housing are all on benefits and dont work
Also MN Social housing should only be for the most desperate

That’s awful!

Can you pay cash or by a bank transfer/direct debit?

I’d keep a log and evidence of every single payment you make in case they start using this as a reason to evict people. Hopefully, if the system is faulty, it will get exposed in court sooner or later.

You need to have proof that you have made the payment.

Can we stick a review of FOIs in this as well.

I cannot stress how many man hours are thrown into these when the requirements to even phrase a question properly are so low.

It must be hundreds of full time jobs on these which could actually be improving services but as they are a legal requirement must be given priority.

There must be a more efficient system.

Of course @CandiedPrincess you should be hold people to account if you think it is necessary but many parents really need to learn what is actually really necessary when bothering school. Just remember there is a massive teacher shortage. Labour want to increase the number of teachers but there are not enough people who want to do the job. I left after 5 years and workload and behaviour of the kids had a lot to do with it but the final straw was the utterly petty interfering fussiness of one parent in particular. When contacting school you might be that teacher's last straw.

In my case the parent was fussing over a year 10 student when there was nothing really wrong and making demands over how I ran my classroom. The head over-ruled me and backed the parent (because the parent just would not let up, the to and fro went on for weeks). I resigned the next day but obviously saw out my notice (which is quite long for teachers, 2-3 months).*

Interestingly the class themselves were horrified and could not believe that the parent was being accomdated (it became common knowledge what was going on because it was to do with a visible aspect of classroom managment). They could see it was out of order and knew I had been undermined. "Well shady, Miss" as one of them said. (Very unfair, if you don't speak Lancs!)

The child in question got her predicated grade. There was no issue. Only one person applied to replace me in my role which was that of class teacher plus a whole school responsibility. I showed my replacement round after she had been appointed and she was stinking of drink at 10 in the morning. I hope the head was happy with his decision. And the parent whose younger child would be taught by this woman.

Silly, fussy, entitled parents are a major problem for teacher recruitment and retention. Because of the parents plus workload I have never taught again as I immediately changed career (starting a business). They could have had another 25 years out of me. I topped my class in teacher training, and had good feedback from the one Ofsted I experienced. I could stretch the bright kids and managed the bottom sets well too. I worked hard for all the kids and tried very hard to be fair and to take individuals into account as much as possible. I have a very good degree from a Russell group uni and had also have an MA and I was asked by the exam board to become a senior examiner for my subject. I was damn good at my job and enjoyed parts of it but I was also human.

I am still relieved the whole thing is over 20 years later. I still have nightmares about being in front of a class without their essays, or a lesson plan, etc. I am glad I did my five years. It made me a better parent at my child's school and probably a better person in interacting with all public services.

Remember this when you feel entitled to bug your teacher or school over every perceived little problem, every tiny bit of perceived unfairness (when a teacher has up to 35 kids to balance the needs of), every decision that does not go your way or tiny thing you don't like. You are chasing teachers out of the profession. You may say it is part of the job, and to a point it is, but you being right won't conjuror up someone to teach your child when there is no-one left to do the job. In some schools, in some subjects, in some areas, there is already no-one left.

*"you would be expected to give two months’ notice and in the summer term three months’ notice in order to leave your post at the end of the term." www.nasuwt.org.uk/advice/conditions-of-service/teachers-notice-periods-resigning-from-your-job.html

If your salary is paid by the people who complain, it’s rather cheeky to demand the right not to listen to them if they’re unhappy. Don’t you think?

in some cases. From a school perspective, there are countless hours lost to investigating false claims of bullying and assault in schools - children who refuse to face up to their piss poor behaviour, bullies, abusers in the making, telling mum that a teacher assaulted them or pushed them or some child they’ve taken a dislike to has done something similar. Parents who refuse to hear that their little darling is a nasty piece of work, reaping havoc with other children’s education, not to mention their mental well being and sense of safety. They run our schools. Clever, untouchable because mum will always complain. The kind of people who ruin careers regardless of the fact that everyone in school knows the adult concerned did sod all.

These are the people OP is referring to. Not those who had a legitimate concern because a teacher isn’t following an exam spec or has called their child names or worse.

I’m not sure enough people understand that your basic classroom teacher gets fairly minimum of training in specific SEN practices. That used to be fine. We had a proper SEN department, many PSA (TA) to support and a number of ‘special’ schools for children who needed more support than mainstream can generally give.
Now, the special schools have been closed because inclusion, the PSAs and SEN staff have been pared back to the bone and beyond. And your average basic teacher now has 15 average children, 5 with some SEN, 5 with pretty severe SEN and a handful with behaviour issues due to chaotic lives outside school. If they are lucky they might get a PSA/TA for an hour or two a week but mostly they are left to get on with it while being expected to provide all singing and dancing lessons full of challenge but also fully differentiated. To give enough attention to average child A who is trying to do their work and wants some help, child B who can’t read or write, child C who has English as an additional language and needs google translate to ask to go to the bathroom and child D who came to school upset and angry because mum was drunk last night and they had to go to grannies because dad wouldn’t answer the phone and this means they don’t have proper uniform or their PE kit and they got a detention for that so told the teacher to fuck off.
And all the other children in between.
Oh yes and your average classroom teacher gets judged as bad when they took 20 minutes to start the lesson due to trying to deal with all the different issues with no support.
Schools like the NHS are woefully underfunded (or funded in totally the wrong areas) Staff has been cut and cut while the needs get higher and higher.

I don’t think Starmer will throw money at anything. The public (rightly) want functioning public services, but a lot of it isn’t about money.

Public Sector employee here. I think it's great that people are empowered through smartphones etc to complain when we fail to meet the required standards.

I also think it's good that parents are standing up for their children more, but maybe that's because I work in safeguarding...

Agree @LittlePearDrop Also as a child of the 70s/80s when parenting was very lacklustre compared to today there would naturally be a lot less complaints as they barely noticed if you went to school let alone cared if there was an issue!