To think this is an immature approach to voting?

[foreverstardust]

I asked my colleague if she’s voting after work and she replied no “because I’m not informed enough to make a decision”, I politely told her to educate herself as this is a lazy view to have. Not as bluntly as that obviously.

Sounds more like a good case for why the voting age should be lowered to me.

He takes an interest. What more is there to it ?

We had a Reopen Nominations, 'RON' option on all STV elections I've run or been involved with (student union, trade union etc). I can't really see how it would work on a national level, especially with a FPTP system.

You could still have voted as an overseas voter, by the way. Obviously too late now.

I think the absence of PS teaching in schools is deliberate and not OK in what claims to be a democratic country.

Politics is an integral part of history, which when I was at school was not linear, but just cherry-picked to suit agendas. The It looked similar in 2020 when I homeschooled DD.

It could easily be taught neutrally and factually, with a basic curriculum and could be structured around the history of our systems and institutions.

But the powers that be have for decades chosen not to do this, because then teenagers would quickly spot the difference between what is presented to us and what actually happens, start asking difficult questions and start not voting for eg Tories.

Italian children are far more politically aware, learning about regional and national governments, constitutions and nationhood from age 9. I would be interested to know what happens in other European schools.

This is yet another area in which the UK is very backwards, compared to the Europe it claims to be so fond of and open to.

This is so true - it is inevitable that people will often vote for trivial reasons.

Plato, in either The Republic or the Symposion can't recall which, had Democracy as his least favoured form of government for exactly this reason. He thought that it was dangerous to put the future of a city state in the hands of low information voters who voted on a trivial basis. He actually has a passage where he describes the 'demogogos' the demagogue who tells the people what they want to hear, makes them feel good, whilst hiding his true intentions. Then the skilly little demos votes for them and they get stuffed.

Not a fan of Plato's elitism tbh but he honestly could've been describing Donald Trump!!

I know but I’d feel like it is not my place

From the amount of dross out through my door in the last few weeks you can ‘inform’ yourself quite easily from an a5 leaflet helpfully bullet pointed. It wouldn’t be my go to excuse because it makes you look lazy/airheaded.

Tbf I haven’t got much time for anyone who doesn’t engage in elections. It’s been less than 100 years since women got the vote and just over 100 years since economic status that disqualified men was abolished and people have completely closed their brains as to why it’s so important.

this thrad, and the current poll status, is shocking.

My response to people like that is very simple, 'that's fine, but then you don't get to comment or complain about anything related to public policies, public services, legal system etc"

It's an absolute pet peeve of mine. Followed by people who say things like, "I think they're all equally terrible so I'm not voting" becuase those people are the FIRST to complain about poor public services.

It is sad but when most people today are picking the least worst option I think understandable. I feel even sorrier for our friends in the US if Biden doesn’t do the right thing.

Yep, fully get that, but as a point of democratic priniciple I believe that you should be allowed to refrain from voting.

That said, there is a myriad of information about the parties, the candidates, at everyone’s fingertips. In that context, her response is massively depressing; she might as well say, I can’t be arsed to find anything out.

This is interesting, because from 1923 onwards, voting turnout was roughly between 70 to 80% (fluctuating between 71.1 and 83.9%)

Voter turnout was at its highest in the 1950s.

From the year 2000, it dropped to 59% With the exception of the Referendum, it's been languishing at sixty odd percent. So in the past 20 years - the years of technology - it has dropped. The years whereby all the information is, indeed, at our fingertips.

Are people less engaged? Is there too much information out there? Has 24/7 news and Internet dulled our senses? Do younger people just feel disconnected, or are there too many other distractions? Do people just think "what's the point?" (there's been a rise in mental health issues during the same time period)

It could be a combination of all these things and more. It's sad to see, though.

Life has definitely become way more complicated.

I think the description I have heard that I agree with most is :

"Democracy is an extremely imperfect system. Unfortunately we have yet to come up with anything better".

I don't think there are that many new ideas in politics. Just the old ones recycled again and again, or re labelled with new trendy terms.

I don't see why not. A decent teacher who believes in democracy should be able to be neutral. I'm a lefty through & through but I challenge my children in discussion & often put right wing positions to them so they develop their political & debatings skills & knowledge. In this context things like our voting system, history of democracy etc can absolutely be taught neutrally and I think they should be. The idea that democracy only works if we participate should be part of our national identity imo.

I did one of these and the result was split equally between Labour, Lib Dems, Greens and Conservatives.

I think they are all shit and I won’t be voting.

OP, have you been vocal in who you are voting for and the shortcomings in anyone who votes for any other party?

I think often people are paralysed by indecision because there is so much info so they don't even know how to go to find what they need. And there's so muchmistrust of the media that even just watching a few news broadcasts or reading a few MSM newspapers feels fraught.

To be fair, spend 10 seconds on MN even and there's half a dozen threads talking about how "terrifying" a labour government is as an idea and another half dozen with people completely shocked and horrified anyone would ever vote conservative again. etc etc.

Yup. Often attributed to Churchill. And AN Wilson. Whoever said it, I agree with them!

So the answer is just not to teach it? That's completely batshit. For a start, some bias in teaching is expected and is found in every subject pretty much, particlarly any broadly in the arts/humanities section. But good schools, and good teachers can compensate for this to a large extent AND it can be mitigated by engaging with different teachers and subject matter over a longer period.

@RainbowZebraWarrior This is what I was trying to explain in my earlier post. Some people are just so bloody scared of receiving "biased" information, they'll just avoid any information at all.

The problem with that is that some people are so steeped in political bias that they don't even realise they're still spekaing, thinking or debating from a place of bias.

Yes, it's immature and she needs to grow up.

But she won't, and no doubt she will continue to moan about things as we all do, only she will have passed up her chance to do something about it.

Did you actually speak to your colleague like that? I'd have told you to piss off.

@MrsTartanTeacosy problem with that is it could easily be biased to whatever the teacher’s or school’s political leanings are. i just don’t trust it can be taught well and taught neutrally

Well people have to trust that teachers aren't brainwashing their students the rest of the time (e.g. in RS or PSHE lessons, or history, which involves politics), so I don't see why it would be any different for teaching politics. Not that we have time in the curriculum, or the trained teachers to deliver it...

Not a properly trained teacher.

Exactly. We are very used to not giving our views on sensitive or controversial issues. It's just part of the job.

I have had to cover politics in PSHE lessons in the past.
I'm not sure that anyone listened or was vaguely interested though.
But it was on the curriculum to be taught.

You've hit the nail on the head in your last post about mistrust. That's definitely what I feel I'm seeing.

Education, also is very clearly a factor.

As a kid in the 1970s / 80s I was encouraged to debate politics and listened intently to what my family discussed. That is not to say that I went on to share or parrot their views. I made up my own mind. I feel that this open debate encouraged my own curiosity and desire to learn and understand more.

Likewise, at school I was treated like an adult from around 14 onwards. Teachers would delight in getting us kids to debate an engage our brains. I remember this nit just in subjects like English, but in History and Religious Studies, too. (Our RS ones were particularly heated, and are very much still relatable)

There were relatives I respected. There were teachers I respected. What I took from all of it, though was not their views, but the fact that they were happy to discuss, share and listen to opinions. It really is something I feel is imperative at such an age.

Forming opinions and having the courage of our own convictions is something we apply to all aspects of our lives as adults. It's such an important factor in education.