Funding may not be the issue in schools?

[damnedifyoudodammedifyoudont]

I know lots of threads already exist on VAT, and this isn't another; putting aside that, does anyone think more money into education (beyond recovering the real terms cut in budgets / covering pensions) isn't the issue?
My (?) unpopular opinion is that teacher burnout and money not stretching have more to do with people's expectations of the service, not the budget.

People have gone from expecting an essential service to education to requiring it to cover parenting, pastoral care, and more. While I see value in some of this, where does parenting stop and school start?

When free education was developed, schools didn't need entire departments dedicated to mental health and pastoral care.

How can we continue to pay for these things and keep the fundamentals going?
I'm not saying we shouldn't have these services, but where does it stop?

This can be applied to the NHS and possibly other government services too.

What do others think?

You mean back when children with SEN were labelled dunces, corporal punishment was the norm and there was no safeguarding so abuse went unreported?

Yeah. The glory days.

I don't think it's either / or, I think it's both.

Schools and the NHS have both been hugely damaged by the other cuts to support and a lack of joined up thinking.

That's what's been so insidious about 'ringfencing' core service spending. They are still impacted by cuts elsewhere.

We really need fresh thinking, and a shift in ideology from 'this is a cost we need to reduce' to 'this is a vital support network we need to get working more effectively'.

Parental support goes a long way.
The profession needs to be trusted rather than questioned at every turn.
Homework late negative given. Leading to a parental email. They didn't do the homework let the teacher get on with their job.

But yabu as funding is a huge issue. Schools which were going to be re built in the bsf programme which the Conservatives cancelled are now is an awful state.
Not enough money for glue sticks.
No teaching assistants until last year (5 years in the same school and there were no in class teaching assistants during that time)

Restructures and staffing cuts.

It is the actual job itself and the relentless demands of the job that are leading to experienced staff leaving the profession (me included). New teachers get 30000. Where is the value placed on experienced teachers. Retention needs to be a priority.

No, not at all. I mean when schools didn't have to potty train and teach children how to use cutlery or dress themselves, and when parents worked with schools rather than undermining them.
I know there are cases where parents need to advocate for their child, but there are also cases where parents cause issues at school rather than accept their child needs discipline.

Exactly this. I agree about cuts, which is why I said beyond re-building the funding of real terms cut and the pension cost.

Every single child I know who isn’t potty trained by school has a level of SEN.

If they didn’t cut all the funding for specialist provisions it might not be so hard.

I don’t disagree about discipline but my experience is there’s very little even when warranted. There are plenty of mechanisms to deal with poor behaviour but many schools are inadequate at it.

People want a fully compressive welfare state but aren’t prepared to pay for it like the Nordics. And the expectations are higher.

Children with SEN didn’t used to be entitled to an education. So those kids were at home and didn’t require any expensive support. Let’s not go back to that.

Are some parents very poor at parenting? Yes, absolutely. But if only funding hadn’t been cut to things like sure start, CAMHS etc we wouldn’t be in such a pickle with schools left to pick up the pieces.

Not what you said in your OP.

schools didn't need entire departments dedicated to mental health and pastoral care.

If two parents in most families have to work a lot of hours from when their children are very small, inevitably we have to hand more of the essential parenting skills over to other people eg potty training, eating with cutlery. Has to be done at home but if your children are in some form of childcare from the age of 1, the childcare provider has to take that on too and work with the family. This naturally then extends to schools, and carries through eg with mental health.

Society has changed and what role schools play has had to change with it. They need more money to do it and pay has to keep pace. What the NHS could or should provide is a different question.

Are some parents very poor at parenting? Yes, absolutely. But if only funding hadn’t been cut to things like sure start, CAMHS etc we wouldn’t be in such a pickle with schools left to pick up the pieces.

This. Pupils with poor parents deserve help to break the cycle.

Many private school kids have 2 parents working full time. They still get potty trained before starting pre-school, still come to school in the right uniform, still get breakfast. The same type of wealthy parents ime who send their kids to state then let things slip. So it’s not just a poor person problem.

My sons Y6 class has at least 5 children with an EHCP for autism (including him) and at least 2 others who are clearly experiencing other difficulties.

He now has a specialist place at senior costing the LA £70k a year. There’s a state provision which was our first choice but they said his needs couldn’t be met there.

My son will be going to a school of 100 ish pupils so that’s £7m a year for children who all have an EHCP which dictates specialist care for ASD.

If the state actually invested in schools and trained teachers and made it pleasant to work in them and fully supported staff and pupils it wouldn’t be the shit show it is.

I too think it is both.

I used to live overseas in a small, very overpopulated place. There are so many DC, versus resources, that they have 2 school shifts in a day. One starts really early, and the other in the afternoon. Class sizes are 35. Despite this, these DC are one of the highest educated in the world. They are top in maths globally. The reason is that the culture there is one of “education is everything. It is the answer to all problems” and the parents and government support this. A teacher can stand in front of 35 DC and they will listen, and they are respectful. Learning doesn’t stop with school, they all carry on doing courses and self development afterwards. There is a “Life Long Learning” campaign by the government. As a result of living there my DC have done really well in school back in the UK because this culture and attitude to learning really rubbed off on me. Funny how back here, I am criticised by friends and peers for being obsessed with education, and harsh on my DC, but I am often told my 2 are well rounded, have healthy doses of self esteem and humility and are resilient.

Yes, there are budget issues here in the UK, but there are some very deep rooted attitude and behavioural problems. I saw it at my own state school 40 years ago, and it has only got worse.

One thing that boils my blood here is that people think we have no resources or opportunities here in the UK. It is laughable. We get to go to school and college for free. We have access to fast internet, libraries, 2nd hand book shops and resources online. We have top Universities. Once you leave school and Uni you can access lots of courses and self development. Since lockdown I have done 3 Free courses online that I have added to my CV things I have no connection with whatsoever. If I want to learn something I can find it very easily locally or online.

But the question is, do we take advantage of all these resources? No we don’t. Very few of us develop ourselves, despite everything around us. We have taken all our educational opportunities for granted.

My DC have done very well at school. I put this down to the discipline I instilled at home, and the support we gave them. They are expected to work hard and get good grades. If my DC came home and they had bullied someone or been disrespectful to a teacher, they would be in a lot of trouble. I’d been told loads of times in parent evenings that my DC are kind, respectful, engaged and a delight to teach.

You can throw as much money as you want at schools, but if there is no discipline, poor behaviour, and a large chunk of the DC don’t want to learn, it is pointless. I have a good friend who is a supply teacher in our area, a nice MC leafy suburb. She now says she won’t go to two of the local schools as the DC (mostly year 9-11) are too abusive to the teachers. I work with a lot of 16-25 year olds and they just have no ambition or work ethic and it infuriates me that Kier Starmer wants people like me, who give a very massive shit about my DC’s education, to get back in my box, and not get above my station by sending my enthusiastic DC to an independent school.

Surely more funding IS the baseline for improving education?
Higher wages would keep and attract more teachers.
More TAs would help teachers in the classroom.
Money spent on essential supply's and improving schools.
Dedicated staff for Sen.
I could go on. If education is to improve we need to seriously invest in it.

YABU
actually we do need entire departments for pastoral care. Bullying was rife when I was at school whereas that behaviour is now dealt with swiftly by the schools my children attended.
children with SEN deserve time and attention.
we are higher rate earners and very happy to pay more tax for these things, and a functioning NHS. Sometimes funding and more staff IS the answer

It's not just funding cuts in schools, it's that schools are picking up the pieces for more funding cuts everything.

Benefit cuts/freezes - more hungry, cold, stressed kids that need support. Cuts to social care/council services - parents turning to schools for support because they are the only "frontline" services still open. Waiting lists for speech therapy/physio/paeds - children arriving at school with delays they have not had any support for. None of these are "parenting" issues in the sense of stable families just not doing their job. Austerity has led to many people having more unstable lives and fewer places to seek help.

There are a lot of places where money will improve things - mending crumbling buildings, updating not fit for purpose IT systems, buying a few glue sticks... the list goes on.

I understand what you are saying about having to do more but there is now an expectation in society that schools can somehow resolve many social problems. The problem is that all the other agencies are as cash strapped as schools so if they need to refer a child to social services for example the council social services department may well reject because the bar is too high. Or they take the child on but push all the expectations for action upon the school.

It's a really complex issue and goes way beyond a cash injection. However working in a properly resourced and functioning school will and can reduce stress on staff and students. That needs money.

Yes. This. I think we are on the same wavelength.
You've eplained it better than I have.
Entitlement gets banded around as an insult. But too many people genuinely are entitled.
I have family members who don't work and complain all day long about what the state doesn't provide for them. I look around and think, if you want it, there are opportunities out there.

Agreed. It is much bigger than all the points that can be covered in one post.
And yes, correct funding for more comprehensive services is also crucial.
But who is willing to pay for it? And how?

My two teacher friends are worn out mainly by the behaviour of the pupils.
So funding is needed but that’s a crisis in schools currently.

We have to teach the cohort we have.

It's all very well saying parents used to do x, y and z but you can't force a chikd to have better parents.

To some extent, I can see that school funding could be kept similar, if there was a huge increase in funding for social services, parenting courses, school nursing teams, SaLTs OTs, mental health support, housing, food, heating, outreach, alternative provisions etc and cut backs there have put enormous pressure on schools as the chikdren have a legal right to be in school, whereas there is no legal right to heating.

But I also think schools need to be able to fund safe buildings and appropriate staff and learning resources. Which they are struggling with.

I think it’s Ofsted, unreasonable expectations for all staff, dire wages for TAs,a rubbish curriculum and a severe lack of SEN funding that are the main issues. Some of these issues could be put right with a better government.

My sister teaches in a primary school in a working class multicultural area. She says the biggest problem is declining behaviour. In particular more and more incidents of overtly and detailed racist insults between children. In some cases the parents will defend their children and even in one case agreed with their views, upon which a safeguarding referral was made.

My sister says this is now so serious it's affecting education overall. She says it's got worse since Covid.

We have become used to a sub standard education system. Classes should be no more than 20. EHCPS should be sorted in two weeks. TA’s in every classroom that they are needed. Laptops for every single student. High quality graduate teachers for every subject. A proper full time school nurse. Sufficient administrative staff and plenty of books and equipment. Parental support is absolutely vital but schools also need a lot of money.