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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if Private School parents think we can’t read?

1000 replies

Captainmycaptains · 26/06/2024 10:00

Work/volunteer in Education so following the whole VAT debate.

SM is full of private parent groups ‘organising’ to get the proposed VAT on fees cancelled - fine you would, wouldn’t you esp.if you’re used to getting your own way.

They’re advocating hassling local schools, councils, demanding stats and figures that don’t exist, wiring to MPs - telling people to ‘claim’ their state place to ‘disrupt’ the ‘system’ while also saying ‘ Obvs we won’t be taking Charlotte and Hugo out of school, we’ll find the money’ etc strive harder, getting granny to chip in’ but this might make the council ‘panic’.

Do they think that people in support of the VAT aren’t seeing/hearing/reading all of these plans???

the funniest one yet is the poster who said ‘ well going to claim our state school places then! See how they like that! We’ll going holiday, pay the mortgage down, shop at Waitrose and save £700k in the process, ha!’
I. no you aren’t 2. Okay - go for it! Who on earth would think £700k is worth it?? Behave like a normal person then…

YANBU - yeah, they’re noisy as expected but the rest of us are as think/ concerned as they seem to think. Also - it’s too late for Sept - waiting lists only…

YABU - applying for school places you have no intention of using is daft, and of course everyone can see what they’re trying to do.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Vivi0 · 28/06/2024 15:26

twodowntwotogo · 28/06/2024 15:00

And are these wealthy state school parents in the room with us now?

Your comments are so riven with bitterness, wild assumptions and leaps of logic, I'll leave you to it. There's nothing wrong with using state schools, no matter what your income is, just as there's nothing wrong with using private schools if that's what you want to spend your money on. What is wrong is calling people reprehensible for their choice, or whinging that you are uniquely hard working to be able to afford private schools because you are uniquely invested in your children's future. Maybe the wealthier state school parents have just made more sensible investment choices, whereby their children get educated for free and they have a valuable property as well. Oh well, good for them.

Why would I be bitter? Bitter about what, exactly?

I’m not bitter about someone sending their child to state school, but nor am I stupid. Wealthy people are not sending their children to the kind of states schools you will find in places like Easterhouse. They are using their wealth, in the same way parents of children who attend private school are, to obtain a better education and school environment for their child.

State schools are in dire need of funding. I hope the VAT goes so way to making a difference, but it is not enough. The same idea was suggested back in 2014, but it may need to be revisited given the deterioration in the state system since then.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25798659

Maybe the wealthier state school parents have just made more sensible investment choices, whereby their children get educated for free and they have a valuable property as well. Oh well, good for them.

Good for them?

On a thread where inequality is being discussed, you’re cheering on people living in £1,000,000 plus homes and whose children are privileged enough to attend outstanding schools that the vast majority of children will never be able to access? Really?

ComeAlongPeggy · 28/06/2024 17:37

Newbutoldfather · 28/06/2024 12:57

@Shambles123 ,

‘Yes, a good one and lots of private school parents will now look to do this. This creates less opportunities for kids whose parents can't afford the houses to go to the good schools and means that the policy will cost the state money.’

I wonder how many if you actually try to quantify it?

There is going to be a high correlation between those leaving and those who are struggling to afford fees. I wonder how many of them have £50k-£100k to pay the stamp duty and other moving costs (a genuinely unfair tax) on an expensive property. So, if 15% leave and 20% of those move (both high estimates in my opinion), that would mean 3% of private school parents moving, or around 10,000-15,000 moves across all of the uk (plenty will be siblings), and that will take place over several years, as moving takes times.

I doubt it will have a significant effect on the state sector.

And will it cost the state money. They will get stamp duty instead of VAT, so more money upfront, and all the VAT on building/decorating and buying new things that comes with moving house.

Most with £50-100k spare would prefer to keep their children in private schools and see how it actually pans out.

I think it will be the parents who were planning to use independent schools but whose children haven’t yet started yet who will now decide to move into the catchment of their favoured state school(s). I have several very wealthy friends with children at incredible state schools and they chose to buy (very nice) houses in catchment instead of pay for independent school fees.

tbh if I hadn’t been tied by work to an area I would have possibly done the same.

ComeAlongPeggy · 28/06/2024 17:42

charitynamechange · 28/06/2024 13:24

Oh that house price-good state school correlation thing is a bit bogus. Despite having sent our children the local comprehensive we have a lot of friends who sent private. They are scattered around the country between London, Cornwall, Somerset, Dorset, Norwich, Surrey, Cambridgeshire and Oxfordshire. And you know what? They ALL have lovely expensive houses in areas full of similar. Honestly reading MN you'd think private school families were all living on the edge of sink estates and comprehensive families were ensconced in luxury abodes.
I do not object to my friends' choices as long as they own them and don't bleat.

Private schools have had lots of warning and can, like other businesses, make savings rather than passing on the full 20 per cent on to parents. It's what businesses with customers do.

Private schools are not a homogenous group. Some have huge savings. Some don’t. Some are already making all the savings possible in order to keep fees as low as they can and to be able to offer bursaries.

Not all schools have the finances of Eton and Winchester.

Suri20 · 28/06/2024 17:55

Interesting. I’ve always thought that on this basis the policy would be shot down. I’m surprised they are still pursuing it given that it probably can’t fly. They had to U turn on charity status.

Is it just politics of envy to secure even more votes? Probably.

It’s crazy as he’s a KC himself? A very competent lawyer. What loophole has he found that overrides legal opinion from 1982 and that we are now part of the ECHR which Starmer is very much a supporter of, makes VAT even more difficult to implement.

Very strange to pursue it.

Ive always thought this would go to judicial review. It’s too unfair, even though many won’t see it that way.

Newbutoldfather · 28/06/2024 17:56

@ComeAlongPeggy ,

Have you ever done a school budget. I have, for a state school, so I know where the £7k a year goes, and it is eye wateringly hard to try and end the year in surplus (which, unless you want to end up in ‘special measures’ you have to.

Now, even the cheapest private school is double that. If you have me those numbers to play with, I could sure as hell make savings and still have a lovely school.

It might not be Eton or Harrow, but it would still be pretty comfortable.

And, as for the mythical bursaries eating into the private school budget, according to the IFS 4% of students are on bursaries, probably averaging 50%, so 2% of the budget. And it isn’t really that, as the majority are hypothecated funds from generous parents or alumni. I am guessing that the cost of bursaries out of fees is 1% tops, probably less than that.

Garlicnaan · 28/06/2024 17:58

Where are you seeing all this?

Genuinely the only place I've seen or heard anything about this (beyond news headlines I don't click on) is on Mumsnet.

north51 · 28/06/2024 18:10

winterrabbit · 28/06/2024 11:33

Just to add, Kier Starmer's son goes to the same state school as my son and it is not an outstanding school - it's rated as Requires Improvement and has a pretty challenging intake. I don't like many of his other policies but kudos to him for sending his kids to the local state even if not great unlike the likes of the hypocrite Diana Abbot and Tony Blair who sent his kids to the Oratory and Grey Coat Hospital - not the same!!

It was rated “good” when he chose it though and was regarded as the best state option for boys in Camden and has a very proactive board of governors including Fiona Miller. (I don’t think there are any outstanding secondary schools in Camden.) Unfortunately it was downgraded in 2022 which was quite a shock for the head and parents. The head at the time said they would appeal and said that things had got more challenging for the school post covid as the intake had struggled more than most…. Of course, Starmer was in favour of longer and more draconian measures during Covid which would have meant these children suffered even more….. his children were fine in their lovely house in Tufnell Park ….
And before that his children went to an “outstanding” primary school that has a catchment area of about one street. So yes his children go to state schools - the best state schools in Camden.

Araminta1003 · 28/06/2024 18:16

It is not just human rights laws that pose a challenge. It is also disability discrimination and in the case of some London schools, race discrimination as well as they are so mixed. Let’s hope they do not waste tons of tax payer funds on this ideology. Like I said, they have already wasted millions because a lot of private school parents have paid upfront fees and we have lost out on savings interest at 40 yo 45%. On the other hand, the media have sold a lot of stories about this so there will be some tax take there.

twistyizzy · 28/06/2024 18:17

Suri20 · 28/06/2024 17:55

Interesting. I’ve always thought that on this basis the policy would be shot down. I’m surprised they are still pursuing it given that it probably can’t fly. They had to U turn on charity status.

Is it just politics of envy to secure even more votes? Probably.

It’s crazy as he’s a KC himself? A very competent lawyer. What loophole has he found that overrides legal opinion from 1982 and that we are now part of the ECHR which Starmer is very much a supporter of, makes VAT even more difficult to implement.

Very strange to pursue it.

Ive always thought this would go to judicial review. It’s too unfair, even though many won’t see it that way.

The irony is this report was done 2 decades ago and Labour accepted it. Now they pretend it doesn't exist.

Araminta1003 · 28/06/2024 18:23

@Suri20 ”It’s crazy as he’s a KC himself? A very competent lawyer. What loophole has he found that overrides legal opinion from 1982 and that we are now part of the ECHR which Starmer is very much a supporter of, makes VAT even more difficult to implement.”

More likely Starmer has know all along there will be legal challenges and tax complications too and it is just electioneering and red meat for the far left in his party. Remember there were regular protests in Trafalgar Square of lefties with placards stating Starmers a Tory.

Barbadossunset · 28/06/2024 18:26

And it isn’t really that, as the majority are hypothecated funds from generous parents or alumni.

@Newbutoldfather James Dyson offered a donation of £6 million to his old school and they refused to accept it.
Private schools are more than happy to accept donations which they then put towards improvements - or as you say, towards bursaries.

Barbadossunset · 28/06/2024 20:56

@PandaPacer

No, this one;
block James Dyson's £6m donation to state school

The Times
https://www.thetimes.com › ... › Technology
29 Oct 2023 — Sir James Dyson has been blocked for the past year by education officials from donating £6 million to his local state primary school

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

https://www.thetimes.com

Barbadossunset · 28/06/2024 20:58

Sorry, I don’t know how to get rid of the big banner The Times etc.

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:06

twistyizzy · 28/06/2024 18:17

The irony is this report was done 2 decades ago and Labour accepted it. Now they pretend it doesn't exist.

Starmer was only elected to parliament in 2015 so acceptance was quite a bit before his time.

twistyizzy · 29/06/2024 09:07

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:06

Starmer was only elected to parliament in 2015 so acceptance was quite a bit before his time.

Irrelevant, Labour as a party accepted it. He will know this.

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:11

twistyizzy · 29/06/2024 09:07

Irrelevant, Labour as a party accepted it. He will know this.

So what? He doesn't have to agree with everything his predecessors did. How disingenuous.

twistyizzy · 29/06/2024 09:16

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:11

So what? He doesn't have to agree with everything his predecessors did. How disingenuous.

No but he needs to do his due diligence before announcing a policy.
From the start it is clear that Labour did not look into this (over and above the flawed IFS report). They have done none of their own costings or engaged with the independent sector which is why they are now back peddling on SEN (only with EHCP though which has now created a mad dash for EHCPs) and state boarding schools. More will come ie for military families etc.

Either Starmer knew about the previous ruling and ignored it OR he and his team didn't do the slightest bit of research into the legalities of the policy before they announced it. Either way its a damning conclusion about their capability. If he knew and chose to ignore it then that raises challenges through the electoral commission for misrepresenting a policy throughout the campaign ie touting something they know to be illegal.

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:20

@twistyizzy I think as as a KC and former Director of Public Prosecutions it's pretty obviuos that he will be comfortable with legal detail.This is not about capability. He has made a judgement call based on the public appetite for such policies. People can decide whether they agree or not in the ballot box. We'll find out next week.

twistyizzy · 29/06/2024 09:36

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:20

@twistyizzy I think as as a KC and former Director of Public Prosecutions it's pretty obviuos that he will be comfortable with legal detail.This is not about capability. He has made a judgement call based on the public appetite for such policies. People can decide whether they agree or not in the ballot box. We'll find out next week.

It most certainly is about capability if he has been touting a policy that he knows prior to the election that he can't deliver.

Another76543 · 29/06/2024 09:37

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:20

@twistyizzy I think as as a KC and former Director of Public Prosecutions it's pretty obviuos that he will be comfortable with legal detail.This is not about capability. He has made a judgement call based on the public appetite for such policies. People can decide whether they agree or not in the ballot box. We'll find out next week.

It seemed to take the Labour Party a while to realise that removing charitable status wasn’t going to have the tax effect that they thought it would. They really don’t understand their own policies around private education.

RoseAndRose · 29/06/2024 09:38

It’s terrrible, really. I can well afford to pay for prescriptions and nursery fees. There is no opt out mechanism, but it really did and does make me feel very uncomfortable. That money could be spent elsewhere - in the NHS or to help single mothers with childcare to get back into work earlier and more easily

@Vivi0 - there is no opt-out mechanism at the point of using the service, but you can refund the government via the voluntary donations scheme.

www.gov.uk)

Edited to add - no idea why that link looks weird (typed in in usual way with square brackets), but it does appear to work

Voluntary payments / donations to government - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:43

twistyizzy · 29/06/2024 09:36

It most certainly is about capability if he has been touting a policy that he knows prior to the election that he can't deliver.

If you are talking legally, again time will tell.

FloribundaFlorista · 29/06/2024 09:50

Another76543 · 29/06/2024 09:37

It seemed to take the Labour Party a while to realise that removing charitable status wasn’t going to have the tax effect that they thought it would. They really don’t understand their own policies around private education.

I think it’s more that charitable status is ridiculously complex. They know what they want - to raise funds from the private sector to use in the state sector. They are just grappling with the mechanism to do it.

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