Civil service job questions

[LanaL]

posting for traffic . I have another post but it would have been too long to add all this . I have a provisional job offer for a CS customer service advisor role for HMRC . I’m a teacher currently. I have some questions , to help me decide if to take it and would be so grateful if anyone could answer . This role is around £200 per month pay cut ( based on if I did supply every week full time - which isn’t always possible and doesn’t take into account sick days , bank holidays , teacher training etc as I get no pay for that )

1. The 60/40 WFH . How flexible is this ? I have heard you can request more WFH. My reasons are my children . Childcare is very difficult during the holidays , they are older so they would have no negative impact on WFH , but more WFH would help. I also have an autistic daughter who struggles with me not being here in the mornings ( a neighbour watchers ) and evenings . As it stands I get home around 530. There have been issues with transport that I have been unable to solve in work and has led to distress in the mornings . This is her anxiety, if her taxi is not here on time she gets very distressed- if I’m here it’s not as bad as I can calm her . There is also a chance funding could be pulled and I don’t how I’ll get her there if this happens. Being at home and able to take her some days ( would have to pay a taxi myself the rest ) would really help .
2. Flexible working - there is a shift of 745am - 8pm , with one Saturday shift every month and one late per week. Both can be taken as part of the WFH - that’s fine . I assume it will be an 8hr day , can I choose my hours ? For eg log on early , come off to do school run , log back on . Decide to start later / work later , do longer days but less etc ?
3. How much do we contribute to pension and is this auto entitlement, employer or salary sacrifice ( so I can work out an accurate take home )
4. What is progression like in this department ? I know there are non customer facing roles that have more WFH / flexible . That would be my aim. The progression is appealing - I won’t want to stay at this pay grade if I can help it , I have aspirations and I am a hard worker so maybe working at this pay grade for a while would be worth it if there is progression.
5. lastly , any ex teachers - is there a better work life balance here ? I am dubious about giving up the holidays with my children but I’m not present term time right now as I’m so exhausted and overworked . It’s not as bad on supply but I can’t stay in supply forever .

thank you !

I am not HMRC but in my department the 60% office working is now non negotiable. You have to come into the office 60% of your time even if 5 years ago you only came in 1 day. The only exception is if you have a workplace passport. And interestingly the only person I know who has one has a disabled child.

one other thing though is that you are not allowed to work with children in the house

Not being hmrc I can't answer to specifically but when you day shift di you mean that's earliest you can start and latest you can finish? Usually you have core hours when your expected to be there eg 10:00-12:00 and 14:00-16:00 with a total monthly/weekly expectation which you make up during the other hours. If you do more hours you build credit and with enough can take a half day/day with approval. If you do less you go into debit and are expected to make it up next month. It'll be explained to you along with restrictions. ( Our office was pretty flexible with flexi when it came to childcare - others may not)

The pension is technically non contributory (pay rises and salaries are adjusted by the govt actuaries to reflect a contribution, you just don't see it)

If you're in customer service your hours will be mandated, not flexible, based on the phone line opening times. Hence shift work. Worth asking for more information from the job manager.

Kids shouldn't be under your care while you WFH - that's a basic one. Especially when you're on calls.

Pension - you'll be in the ALPHA scheme: https://www.civilservicepensionscheme.org.uk/your-pension/managing-your-pension/contribution-rates/ - all details are on that website.

Is this “ under your care “ or actually in the house ?

There is no way that I could guarantee they would never be in the house when I work anyway . But , they aren’t young children- my eldest is 18 , my youngest 12. They won’t need me to ‘care’ for them . I won’t be popping off calls to make dinner etc , they are able to be independent.

Yes it says shifts between 745am and 8pm

I'm in HMRC. The 60/40 wfh split is mandatory. An attendance tool had recently been introduced to track and monitor this. You can ask for an AWP to be put in place, but this is at the discretion of your manager, and the needs of the business. I'm glad I'm not in CSG role because I value my weekends!

I worked in a civil service called centre but a different department - they are stricter on 60% if anything and they aren't remotely flexible on working hours. We were on rolling shifts so we always knew where we were which was good - the same patterns repeating over 4 weeks. Absolutely no way would you have been able to log off for a bit and make it up later though.

My department is great for progression. Other areas of the CS aren't though. I got on the merit list for a different call centre where you were effectively locked in to the call centre for 18 months - they wouldn't allow you to apply for other roles in the organisation in the first 18 month.

Hopefully someone from HMRC can give you more specific advice though as it does differ from one organisation to the other.

Thank you everyone .

im unsure if to click accept - then would I get chance to ask questions ? Or do I click I would like to discuss ? Only issue is I work full time so unless the discussion was by email , I can’t even see when I would fit in a phone call !

Not CS here, but Incan tell you that asking for more flex or time before you have even started won’t go down well. Take the job, work well, be reliable… then you’re in a better position to ask for things.

1. 60/40 ratio. It is mandated throughout the Civil Service. But how that works may vary, bearing in mind you would be a new entrant

HMRC are right up in the headlights with the public view and political bandwagons

Before COVID government policy was to sell off the estate, reducing down to smaller footprints in each department and the use of shared ‘government hubs’. Staff were being instructed to work in a hybrid manner with WFH, work in any government hub and to have hot desking. A wider government programme was to rollout personal laptops to all desk based civil servants to enable this
During COVID there weren’t enough laptops for civil servants to WFH, and trawls were put out to call back some to give to those conducting essential services
HMRC were especially thrown under the political bus being required to come in office where there were less buildings working up closely on desks in the opposite manner to other departments which had half the desks ‘disabled’ for social distancing
HMRC offices became a breeding zone for covid

The political sound bite policy quotes statistics that HMRC aren’t achieving 60% in office - without mentioning the reduced space

It’s very likely that you will be mandated to the 60% with managed time sharing of desks etc

More WFH can be requested under reasonable adjustments. This requires a case to support the need

www.civilserviceworld.com/professions/article/hmrc-office-closures-some-staff-working-on-brexit-could-face-redundancies

2 FWH and shifts - the mention of a shift pattern implies that you will be on set shifts, that will need to be covered. Presumably as a customer facing POC in HMRC

3 Pensions:
www.civilservicepensionscheme.org.uk

4 Progression - it depends. Any civil servant can apply for any civil service job. Within the same department or transferring to others
Some people jump from job to job every couple of years, others stay more stable

5 work life balance - it depends on your circumstances. Known amount of leave, known working hours, good HR policies
Bearing in mind you’ll be probably in a customer service role, life can be good. You can switch off at the end of the day etc
I’m in the MoD in a non (public) facing role, I’m on FWH, I take most of my leave on planned long weekends. I can manage how I plan & prioritise my workload - subject to urgent requests

Just a quick reply to say that I think that some of these questions (esp 2&3, and 1 too even if you just ask questions rather than reveal much personal info) are completely reasonable to ask and get clear responses before you accept. I’d expect someone I offered a job to, to be entitled to know exactly what their take home pay would be/benefits, and what time the shifts are or what is compulsory vs flex in terms of when you need to be working.

I'm in HMRC but not in CSG (Customer Service Group).

As someone else said, 60/40 is mandated and tracked. However, I see alot of people only do part of the day in the office and use lunch to travel in/out of the office. As an example, over the Whitsun holiday i went into the office 8-12 and then worked from home in the afternoon. I don't generally do this week to week though.

Once you've passed probation you're free to apply for other roles across HMRC that are on an internal approach. (You can apply at any point for an externally advertised advert). Progression is very possible across the civil service in general. (I've changed job 4 times in 7 years and progressed from an EO (or O in HMRC) to Grade 7 in that time).

CSG probably has the least flexibility, but if you can see it as a route in and stepping stone, the initial lack of flexibility should pay off.

Happy to try answer any questions. There is also an active sub reddit r/TheCivilService where people will happily tell you the ins and outs of different departments.

I was a teacher and now work for CS. It’s a non-customer facing role so much more flexibility.

The HR policies are really good and you will be able to get support. It’s certainly more flexible than teaching (even supply).

I would explain your circumstances to recruitment by email. Let them know that you’re really keen on the job but that you have concerns due to caring responsibilities. Be prepared for no flexibility at first but an improvement after you pass probation (can be 3 or 6 months).

It’s worth getting into CS and then looking out for internal vacancies, even to a different branch.

I’m HMRC, a G7 Business Unit Head so have responsibility for SO managers and HO caseworkers - about 60 people in total.

I’m spending 80% of my time at the moment dealing with HR issues around 60/40 and return to office. As PPs have said, the 60%/3 days is now mandatory and senior management are taking formal HR action against people not meeting that target with no adjustments - conduct and disciplinary action. The only adjustments really available are for people with additional caring responsibilities and/or health issues, but they are few and far between.

Childcare is absolutely not a caring responsibility that negates the 60%, because if it was the majority of the department wouldn’t meet it for that reason (the expectation being if children have additional needs). I’ll be honest, I’m absolutely sick to death of dealing with people who are complaining about it/having to bollock people who don’t want to come in because of childcare when I’m paying £900 in nursery fees to be able to meet the expectation/do my job. And no, as PPs have said you absolutely shouldn’t be working with your children home, regardless of their age. Especially in a CSG role, you have very strict shifts/call expectations/dealing with confidential calls so nobody should be around at home whilst you’re doing that. If you can’t guarantee confidentiality at home then you are supposed to work solely from the office.

So in summary OP, unfortunately the CS is nowhere near as flexible as it once was. However it is a great employer for many other reasons - pension, some flexibility at least, progression - so if you can do the 60% and meet that expectation I’d go for it. As others have said, CSG is one of the strictest/most monitored roles but is a good stepping stone to other roles.

I work for HMRC, and was a customer advisor for about 18 months before I moved to my current role.
I can’t guarantee that it’s the same for everybody, but although the job specification said there would be working until 8pm and some weekend shifts, that only applied pre-COVID. Our phone line was open 8-6, Monday to Friday.
The earliest we could start was 7.45. We had to do three days in four weeks where we worked until the line closed and all the calls taken before it closed were cleared. This usually meant finishing by 6.15-6.30 at the latest, but at very busy times it could be after 7.30.
Otherwise, you can work your hours as you wish between 7.45 and 6, although I assume you would need permission from your manager to have a very long/more than one break in the day. Mostly they were more concerned you stuck to your daily pattern (except in emergencies of course) rather than what that pattern was.
I’ve never heard anyone say that you can’t have children in the house when you’re working, as long as they’re not in the same room/require your supervision. Would have thought it would be more of a concern if another adult could overhear you.

I would say this probably isnt the role for you, keep looking. Or take it with the view to move on swiftly but beware of recruitment freezes. I left teaching and moved to a Civil service arms length body, (for example DEFRA is Civil Service whereas Natural England, Environment Agency, APHA are arms length bodies) we have the same good conditions as Civil Servants but more flexibility.

I started in a low grade role and moved to a higher grade within 6 months. My role is entirely flexible as long as I work my 7.4 hours at some point between 7am and 7pm, nipping out for the school run or being away from your desk to run errands is a non-issue as long as time is blocked out in the calendar. Children over 10 are fine to be in the house with you unsupervised.

I also have an autistic teen DD and have her caring needs in my Employee Passport and have had nothing but support.

In terms of holiday it's fine, I get 25 days + 8 bank holidays + 18 Flexi (toil) days. So it doesn't actually work out that different to school holidays particularly as I'm never sick now and the house isn't a state both scenarios always ate up holiday time not to mention planning and marking. Sundays are always my own with no work related tasks to do. I get 'told off' if I work too many long days in a row and told to just shut my laptop as it'll still be there in the morning.

I'd keep looking for different roles, particularly ones in Early Career, EDI, Communications which seems to attract lots of former teachers.

I agree with other posts- the 60/40 thing is pretty strict now. But you being a carer for a disabled child might in fact entitle you to an adjustment. I’d definitely explore this in advance of accepting the job in your position and make sure if you do get some kind of dispensation it is in writing (otherwise if you get a new boss you’ll have to start all over again).

Thank you . I certainly don’t want to stay in this role , I would love something like you have that would make my life so much easier ! I’m just thinking that maybe being in the CS might make it easier to move ? I think I might take it, see how it goes and know that if I’m utterly miserable or it doesn’t suit me I can leave and I always have supply to fall back on .

Do you know if you can apply for external roles still if you already have a job there ?

Thank you , this helps! How was it for work life balance ?

It says in the job description one late a week ( may have been month ) and up to 6 Saturdays per year are required , these can be worked from home.

Do you think this counts within the 40% from home or you can take that on top ? I would be more than happy to do more Saturdays / lates if they were on top , but imagining it’s included in the 40%

Ask the HR team who sent you the offer. I manage such a team, this is normal to ask.

I’m a single parent of a DD(15) who has ASD and OCD. I chose to work for the Inland Revenue in 2003 because I was married to a junior doctor, and I wanted one of us to have life/work balance. I don’t regret this. However, I only work part-time now (25 hours, 4 x 6h15min) so my experience isn’t directly comparable to what yours would be.