Kids (toddlers) - do you just have to play the hand you are dealt?

[bloodynewusernameagain]

Currently pregnant with second baby. First is a very active toddler. His sleep is still a shitshow and although he is a really affectionate boy and there are no ostensible developmental issues, the tantrums are becoming something else now... biting, hitting, pinching, throwing stuff at ppl, hittting his head against things).

At 6 months when it was clear independent sleep was not happening of its own accord, Husband was adamant he didn't want to sleep train as he believes our boy is sensitive and alert and has read that some kids can'tbe sleep trained. I wanted to st but agreed not to and see if he figured it out himself. Still waiting a year later. I understand not sleeping through is "biologically normal" etc etc.

Tantrums are usually dealt with in a gentle and supportive but hands on/occasionally I feel appeasement type manner. Again my instinct/want is to be far more let him get on with it, no interfering, if he does something like biting to move him away and not cajole or appease to calm him down though when I've briefly tried the non intervention route it can end up escalating to the head butting.

I grew up in an authoritarian household with little gentleness and kindness to each other taught or given which is why I always overridde my instinct and go with husband's approach.

A very roundabout way of asking if you think that IABU i.e you have to go with the toddler in front of you (husband's view) in a way that I see as quite reactive or IANBU a firmer no-nonsense approach would have prevented the scale of some of the issues and saved me quite a bit of sleep deprivation and also unhappiness over these last nearly two years.

Asking for the next time round.....

Thanks

Ime (many dc) sleep training can transform a monster dc into a cherub... Sleep is vital.

For dc and for you.Longterm health problems are a real thing for adults after long term sleep deprivation..
Also ime.
*no crying it out ever occurred. No props either..

My first was a difficult sleeper, my second sleeps so well since birth I thought something was wrong.
I don't agree with sleep training, from everything I have read what will get you the most sleep is co sleeping. I found the beyond sleep training info really helpful

Your son sounds quite normal. My DDs had similar and grew out of it all before kindergarten. They are wonderful young teens now who have slept brilliantly since about age 2.5. I agree with your DH. Too strict can be harsh on such a young child. This is a tough age where you need patience to gently guide them with consistency and routine and redirection. When he's older you can give more concrete and discipline understandable to his age. Toddlers and babes need more love and closeness rather than cry it out (which is cruel).

well, it does sound like tantrums are being rewarded, which is only going to encourage more tantrums!

But I don't really think parents have much influence on children's sleep

not sure if you’d call it sleep training, but we did swaddle and later on left to cry for a few minutes (gentle frustration crying, not wailing, obviously then we would step in). they now go to bed easily, and can self settle in the middle of the night if they wake up. We’ve had 2yrs of uninterrupted sleep!!

I would not do cosleeping again. I nearly suffocated my child, luckily my husband walked in just in time. It was the most horrendous night of my life.

Maybe the terrible sleep is a factor in the tantrums?

I think it's fair to toughen up on bedtime a bit when they're no longer babies; if you never got a full nights sleep you'd be pretty grumpy as well!

Im very interested in this. I also didn't sleep train and followed the beyond sleep training projects views as i had a terrible napper and sleeper. I now have a nearly 5 year old who cannot link sleep cycles after midnight unless he sleeps with me, and who is becoming more dependent on me for sleep. I get hardly sleep as he has to he touching me or sleeping on me, and frankly i think his sleep is often rubbish too as he is often in a state of perpetual motion. my husband has moved to the spare room . I didnt want to do any crying but i feel I have done him a disservice by not helping him with these skills.

Its killing us. I've not had an unbroken night's sleep since i got pregnant with him.

I patted myself on the back with my two girls. Both very easy toddlers / children, never a tantrummy, hiting or biting stage.

Then I had my son and I realised the luck of the hand you are dealt…

He’s 27 months now and I think we are over the head but the floor stage, but he will still bite, hit and pinch. This tends to be when he is very tired or hungry.

Since all he teeth have come through and he (touch wood) fairly consistently sleeps through, he is much better.

If you feel he isn’t getting enough sleep then I think sorting that could make a world of difference to behaviour. I do think sleep is paramount rather than how you deal with the bad behaviour at this age (e.g. solve the cause rather than correct the problem). My little boy loves nothing more than getting the chance to say sorry to his sisters and give them a cuddle even if he is told off before hand, and if we ignore the behaviour it just carries on.

How do you get your little one off to sleep for the night or do you just go to bed at the same time?

Sleep is so SO important to health of parent and child. It is proven to significantly contribute to good parenting and healthy outcomes. Meanwhile the scientific evidence against sleep training is very small and consists of a) hypothetical studies around attachment (hypothetical because they aren't tested just based on theory) and b) a study done on 'cry it out' that caused raised stress (no kidding).

But 'Sleep training' does not have to equal 'cry it out'. There are ways to approach this (if you want) that involve no more crying than encouraging any other good habit and it is never too late to start gentle sleep training. Obviously it has to be a joint decision, and obviously no one has to do it but do not be put off by the rather aggressive push a lot of online mums have against anything that isn't 'natural parenting'.

For baby, what we personally found worked was:

• From 2 weeks old or so, starting to get in good habits of distinguishing day and night. At night, minimal active interaction and room dark/quiet. Cuddles always available but not 'playtime'.
• Next, sleep cues. For us, white noise and a dummy (after breastfeeding established) whenever sleeping and only when sleeping, and later a set phrase we would say.
• Once a little older, a set waking up time each day. 7am every morning the curtains were opened, music on the Alexa, saying good morning, milk, dressed etc. Even when baby had only re-settled at 6:40am (and god it was miserable sometimes BUT...)
• That set us up for fairly similar naps and feeds each day. We never forced it but each baby found their own rhythm and it meant we mostly(?) avoided over-tired and could be prepared for nap or bed time which helped with...
• Putting them down in the cot when 90% but not 100% asleep, then staying to soothe until they dropped off. Then it became 80%, then 70%, then we were a little further away, outside the door and finally downstairs with a glass of wine! We always went back if they cried but just stayed until they were calm and then tried again.
• By four months ish we normally also had a fixed dinner, quiet time, bath, pyjamas, milk, story, white noise on, dummy in, 'night night, sleep tight' routine.
• Have days off, exceptions, that one nap a day where they just sleep on you, that Sunday where they ended up in your bed all night - whatever you feel you need!

Obviously won't work for everyone but I am a big (unqualified beyond being a mum and teacher) supporter of do what you need to thrive, boundaries and routines are good, everyone needs sleep approach.

Still navigating the toddler/pre-school stage, can't say anything about that so far except being well rested really helps :D :D

You're doing awesome OP, keep going!!!

I feel like there is a middle ground between you and your husband that would probably be most beneficial. You don’t want to go for the easy fix that suppresses the behaviour as that doesn’t teach them long term, they do need help to regulate their emotions for their first several years. With my toddler if she comes upset about something then we acknowledge the emotion and say what shall we do about it. If she is behaving poorly whilst dysregulated then the behaviour is dealt with first. Ie telling her plainly we do not hit/throw things and move her away. She will normally then want to cling and I’ll say I’m ready to talk/cuddle when she’s ready and when she’s calm we talk about the emotion being fine but the behaviour not being okay, and what else we could do. Her language has always been good though. If your child can understand you then those boundaries need to be set. You can explain why but there’s no need to appease, you just acknowledge.

i would say, my toddler would never have been able to be sleep trained (I could never leave her to cry regardless) but if I wanted to with this one it feels like it would be possible, as she’s much more chilled in terms of sleeping independently for naps and has gone to sleep drowsy but awake on occasion (never for my first she would have to be dead asleep to transfer). All kids are different so you must be responsive, but right and wrong must still
be taught.

I Agree with the post above re sleep habits. How old is the toddler? As that makes a difference, but as I said, as soon as they can understand you well you can set boundaries around waking up/sleeping in their bed etc.

You have to play the hand you're dealt, but how you play that hand is up to you.

We're all a mix of nature and nurture. It's undeniable that children arrive with their own personalities, but you can absolutely use different approaches to get different results.

Look into sleep training before the new baby comes. Or hand over all night wakes to your DH and he can use his gentle approach instead.

This. My daughter had a complete personality change once we got sleep sorted, from aggro to calm and focussed, and she's been calm and focussed ever since.

Thanks everyone for your insights. I guess I've made a general question a bit personal, but it does seem that there isn't a completely unanimous response on whether it's the toddler or the parenting that creates/exacerbates issues/behaviours/sleep in general...... @NuffSaidSam I think you echo my own opinion regarding the mix of both. @Morningsiesta thanks for sharing too, it is definitely one to add to the plus side for sorting this thing out and for going forward with the next one.

I agree @YouAreAllMySymmetry and @Itsmyshadow I've thought myself that the tantrums and sleep could be linked. I definitely see an increase in frustration and volatility when he's tired, but he has always been a child who just seems to wind up and up when tired and finally just conk out. We have really tried hard with all sorts of variables regarding the bedtime routine, super early, super late, ridiculously choreographed HV approved wind downs for over the last year or so, which still have no real effect on things, so tbh I do not think routine is the issue @Haveyouanyjam . For reference he is just coming up to 2 years old. He has more than enough exercise every day between childcare and dad so it also isn't that.

@Mostlyoblivious we were co sleeping (I hadn't wanted to do this but fell into it through the attrition of teething, colds, more teething and just being too tired to try to get him back to sleep in his own room) but we've just managed to get him back into his own room now because I'm shortly going to have a newborn to cope with too and it wont be fair on anyone to have him co sleeping whilst trying to navigate the first few months. Plus I'm having a c section, so I physically won't be able to deal with it for the few weeks after birth as he can be quite clambery and

@ZippyKoala thanks for the memory jog for the approaching second time round, I'm going to keep your really helpful points in mind, as I think we didn't maintain as well as we could have last time! Also thanks for the boost re. sleep training. I'm of that opinion too, and I follow Emily Oster's line of thinking on a lot of stuff and she was comfortable with it too. I would say, having left it so late now with our boy, it is a lot more of a struggle than when I tried for a few days aged 7 months (with the ability to climb out of cot, tantrum, bang head and hurt himself and also communicate!). Wish I'd known all that then, I think I would have stuck to my guns!

Thanks again everyone who has posted so far and sorry if I've forgotten to reply to anything!

Yes, I’m a big Emily Ostper fan too! I like being able to see what research is behind choices. Best of luck with everything x

Thanks @ZippyKoala

And a bump for any other thoughts/votes!

I work with children and temperament plays a huge role in how children respond to so many things. There’s not one right approach.

My LO has just turned 2 (also expecting baby no.2) and when he was a baby we did different variations of sleep training. First building sleep associations, schedules etc and somewhere between 7 - 9 letting him cry for short periods (5 mins max) before we returned and it changed his sleep for the better quickly. This took less than a week but we did have to repeat after a holiday.

At 2 we still lie with him to go to sleep (next to his cot, have a chat about the day and tomorrow for a few minutes, holding his hand and still make a shushing sound after that). If he’s throwing his toys, banging on the bars, screaming etc I leave the room and sit outside the door for a few minutes before I return. Same if he wakes in the night (very rare now - unless poorly then he comes in with us/we stay with him). We’re there when he falls asleep and go if he calls but I find he needs to know we’re serious that it’s bedtime and playtime is over. I need sleep and so does he, the difference in him if he wakes an hour or more early is noticeable.

Tantrums because he wanted the blue plate not the red one, wanted chocolate for tea and didn’t want to leave the park are met with understanding that it’s disappointing for him and a hug when he’s ready.

On the other hand I’m completely no nonsense about biting, hitting and throwing things he shouldn’t like a plate (he loves to throw). He gets a raised voice clear ‘no hitting, that’s no ok’ and removed. The only time he ever attempted to hit in a toddler class I gave him one warning and the next time he tried removed him and went home! He understands our boundaries and does push them in different ways with other family members who aren’t as firm. Tantrums are very age appropriate though.

It's ok to prioritise your sleep too.

Thanks so much for this thoughtful and super helpful reply. I'm going try to mimic the things you have mentioned here, the sleep and tantrum strategies sound really good. Much appreciated, thanks again!

Your son doesn't sound unusual.

Your parenting would benefit you more. DHs benefits the child more.

It's very easy to parent for your own convenience, its very hard to parent optimally for your child's benefit.