AIBU to think that some people with illness/disability truly cannot work at all?

[Agix]

All the political discussion recently about helping sick/disabled people into work is great in theory, but in practise I'm wondering if it's at all realistic. And quite scary when discussed alongside the threats to sickness/disability benefits.

I've had chronic illness, physical problems and mental illness since a young age. Won't list all the diagnosis as it's extensive and boring.

I was keeping my head above water for a long time, working, but recently I've severely worsened.

I work full time, with all the reasonable adjustments now. WFH, breaks as much as I need, manage my own schedule.. and I'm still declining and struggling. There is no more employers can do for me, realistically.

It's not a lack of will to work with dealing with health issues, it's that I no longer can. I've worked through discomfort and pain for years, that's fine, but now I cant do work. I cant focus, on anything. Could never do much at all physically, now cant do much mentally as requires focus and energy that I do not have.

For my own situation, something will have to give at some point. I've requested to talk to occupational health to see if there's any way to manage my job. Perhaps I can work 2 days to some sort of adequate standard at most. I'm under CMH as well as having recieved other referrals for treatment in other areas. I'm waiting now.

The sickness benefits I may have had to rely on if I had to quit/severely reduce hours look like they're being taken away. I'd have to be at the mercy of my partner and rely on him if I lost my job/living wage.

But it has made me wonder, what's going to happen to sick people who cannot work? Who dont have anyone else to rely on?

It's not just about the sick persons willpower, but what employer is going to want to hire someone who cant do any work? Or work to a certain standard? Why do we assume everyone can do something worth paying for, enough to earn a living wage 'if they just tried'? I know i bloody cant.. I've tried and am trying! I'm tired of fighting to keep doing something I can't. I'm not worth my employers money.

And if someone can only work very part time, how are they going to afford to live without the sickness benefits too?

I just find it baffling that people are assuming all unwell people can somehow manage to work. If they could do, they would already be doing or trying (like I have and am). There are people much more unwell than me out there.

AIBU to think that some people with health conditions truly cannot work because of them?

You sound as if all the disabled bashing is getting to you. Don’t let the bastards grind you down. Easier said than done I know.
Surely it is absolutely obvious to anyone with genuine knowledge of the full range chronic ill health and disability that those most severely affected generally cannot work? People who disagree have no idea what they are talking about. Certainly some disabled people or people with chronic health conditions can and do work but many simply cannot. It is not a choice but an awful reality which damages every aspect of life.
I would love to hear someone tell me how I could still be working. God knows I could do with a laugh.

Im the same OP. Multiple dissabilities and cant work.

I am in lreland so don't know what's happening about disability payments but everything you have said makes total sense and l cannot see how anyone could argue against it. Here, a member of my family gets a disability payment due to severe depression but is allowed to work two days a week ,with no repercussions, as doctors have said its good for his mental health.

Sounds to me like you have gone past the call of duty now and should be able to save what energy you have just for living and l don't know what kind of society would have an issue with that.

I work with people with chronic illnesses and some of them, indeed cannot manage even nominal hours. Not without sacrificing what they can do outside of work anyway. So, yes, realistically someone may be able to WFH for an hour a day, and yes, in theory, if we had employers open to it then it may have been possible. However, someone who then has to spend the day recovering from that hour and not being able to look after themselves as a result... I don't think work is beneficial in these circumstances.
However, there is the other side to it. People who can work but lack opportunity and support to make it happen. I talked about my friend's son before on similar threads. He has a progressive genetic disorder which rendered him effectively quadriplegic from the age of 12. He requires 24/7 care, yet he is in full time employment. My friend was able to access funds and support from charitable organisations to source necessary assistive equipment and a personal assistant. His employer is extremely flexible. He works from his bed on a computer which is voice activated and tracks eye movement. It's a huge upfront investment but it guaranteed lifelong work ability and good quality of life. Will our government fork out for something like that? Not a chance.

It isn’t sickness benefits for those that are unable to work that are being taken away though is it? It’s PIP that’s being discussed, which isn’t dependent on of you work or not, working people get it. Yes there are of course people who’d really can’t work, which sounds like yourself, who should continue to get benefits and should be protected. But there’s also others who could work and they should be supported to work.

I get you OP. There was a TV programme about this, a few years ago now. One of the people on it had been a champion skier but had become ill and required lots of hospital appointments. Like she said; even if she could work what employer was going to be happy with at least two hospital appointments a week? And as they were at different departments, she couldn’t even say she’d work 3 days and have her appointments the other days.

I would never be able to hold down a job, well I mean I probably could for a short time but it would cause me so much stress. When I say stress it's because I am unable to articulate. I am autistic and have ADHD and complex PTSD and I could never in a million years explain to someone how that affects my ability to work. I don't have the processing or communication ability to do that. On the outside I would be judged as able to work, I'm sure, but how that work would affect me is something I could not convey. The best I can do even here is to say 'stress' because I don't know how to write it down. I haven't worked for years, but if I were dependent on disability benefits and someone else deciding my 'ability' I would be screwed

The sickness benefits I may have had to rely on if I had to quit/severely reduce hours look like they're being taken away.

Are you England/UK, OP? Can any of us advise you on this? I've done a fair amount of PIP wrangling in my time.

I wish there were more opportunities for people who can only work limited hours. I have a friend who is VERY physically fit but has a neurological condition which means she struggles with co-ordination, is extra sensitive to noise and many other symptoms. She wants to work but after not working for over 30 years it’s hard for her to try to find the right kind of work which she would be able to manage.

I have an incurable cancer but when I’m on treatment I have periods of feeling quite well. I have tried to return to work twice- once to my contracted job & the 2nd time to self employed work as I thought this would be more flexible. I enjoy my job & working but with all the appointments I have, the fatigue & other side effects from treatment & the emotional toll it takes it’s very hard to continue working. Even with adjustments I have found employers don’t always get it & as I work in a client facing role I need to feel emotionally robust to support others. I am not working currently & I don’t know if ill be able to return but I agree with you OP.

My parent is on long term disability despite being physically able to care for the animals on their small holding. It's very, very physical work 365 days a year. Outwardly you'd think, they should be working then! In reality they're high as a kite on the cocktail of drugs they're on each and every day of their lives and are odd in their personality and communication with others because they're suffering from lack of sleep and constant pain. I'm okay with my taxes going to keep them out of the workforce. They'd be a danger to themselves, the public or the company.
Looking at them and what tasks they do every day one would say they're scamming disability.

Obviously YANBU - there are swathes of the population (with or without diagnosable illnesses or disabilities tbh) who are not employable in any real job. Insisting that they should do so will not make it happen.

Having said that, for people who have disabilities but really want to work, it is right that they should be facilitated to do so. I know people with very significant disabilities and health conditions who are highly skilled at what they do, and much sought after in their professions. Some of them had to fight the belief that they would not be able to live the lives that they have in fact lived.

I’m not concerned about benefits. That’s what we pay our taxes for. I’ve never had to use them, yet but there for the grace of god (or providence, I’m an atheist 😁).

I do think flexible work would be beneficial to a lot of people who are chronically ill but sporadically feel not too bad. Personal interaction and a sense of purpose does people’s mental health no end of good.

If such flexible opportunities could be created, great. Benefits in such circumstances should not be affected. Of course, it will never happen.

There are absolutely people who cannot work. The 'benefit' angle is just politics, people like to think there's large numbers of people getting huge amounts for sitting at home, and that they should be punished. That's just not true.
I will say I think there should be more support out there to help people find things that bring them joy or satisfaction. My mil is on long term sickness and she says every day is like Groundhog Day. It's really not helpful for her as she stays up all night, sleeps all day and then feels grumpy and tearful. Lots of guilt. Lots of fixating on small things. If she could be supported or to have a 1:1 to take her to do some volunteering or befriending, it would be so good for her. But there's just not the help out there. She wouldn't get anything based on a needs assessment, and might have to contribute which would make her feel guiltier about taking money out the family pot.

I can remember several years ago, when there was another focus on 'getting everyone 'back' to work'. My son had just entered residential care, and I had to walk with him to the DWP assessment centre for a work capability test related to Universal Credit. His appointment should have taken fifteen minutes. It took nearly two hours because he could not speak, was shaking and only wanted to talk about cats (his special interest and source of comfort at the time).

The assessor was so compassionate, and told me that my son should not have been asked to attend an assessment. She added that during that week, most of her time had been taken up 'assessing' people who were so obviously not able to work.

Six years later, after three years in residential services and three in supported living, my son is engaging in voluntary work, and may soon be ready to take on some supported employment.

Vote grabbing scare tactics, sometimes supported by initiatives that target all recipients of disability/sickness related benefits may result in some people being moved from disability related benefits to employment related benefits, but they will also cause distress an unnecessary disturbance to the most vulnerable in society, and place more pressure on an already broken system of assessment.

I would also like to add that strategies used by the DWP in the assessment of disability related awards have been challenged by the EHRC. My experience (and a more recent experience involving another vulnerable relative) would suggest that individual assessors may be in a very difficult situation:
Department for Work and Pensions under investigation for treatment of disabled benefits claimants | EHRC (equalityhumanrights.com)

To the question as asked, undoubtedly some people have an illness or disability that prevents them working at all. This is fairly obvious, someone in a coma probably can't hold down any kind of job at all, it's not a question of willpower or "getting their shit together" - their condition means they can't work.

The real question should be, can any given individual do worthwhile/meaningful work? It needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. A lot of disabled people could do some kind of work, but if they are not able to do it to the standard expected of a "normal" worker, it doesn't follow that they necessarily should do it.

Equality legislation prevents discrimination against the disabled but that is looking at the problem the wrong way round. Rather than trying to "force" people into doing a job badly we should match them with work they are capable of doing well. Undoutedly and very clearly some people won't be able to do any kind of work to a standard where it's worthwhile them doing it. If they want to do something and someone is willing to pay them to do it, great, but don't try to pressure people into doing something they can't do.

I'm talking here about people who can't work rather than can't be arsed to work of course. People falsely claiming they have a disability or exaggerate it as an excuse not to work is a different and bigger issue.

I think something people often don't understand about chronic illness is that even if you can do something, that doing that thing might mean you then cannot do anything else that day or even week. It came up recently on a thread here from a woman who could not keep on top of the housework because of her disability, with some posters just not understanding that technically being able to do the washing up isn't enough if it means you spend the rest of the day in bed. And that this isn't a one-off while you have the flu, but a constant series of trade-offs, setbacks, boredom and frustration with no end in sight.

I wish people would listen to and believe people about their own limitations rather than viewing it through their own lens. Chronic illness and disability are NOTHING like short-term illness.

Yeah I can work and one night a week I play netball - but I have to sleep after work to be able to then play
Some nights I can exercise, some I have to go straight to bed to then be able to have the energy to shower
Plus the hospital appointments and blood tests. Mostly have phone appointments which my work accommodate thankfully but working 40hrs is becoming rough

Of course there are some people who cannot work because they are too ill/disabled. I don't think anyone seriously doubts that. Equally obviously, those people need to be supported by appropriate benefits.

But there are also a lot of ill or disabled people who do work and I think it is right as a general principle that those who are able to work do so, with whatever aids and adaptations or they need.

I often read here comments from people saying "I can't work because I have..." and I think of the people I have worked with who have the same condition.

Over the years I have worked with people in wheelchairs, blind people (some with dog, some without), people with autism, and people with bipolar. I had a family member with Down's syndrome who worked.
There are no doubt lots of other people I have worked with whose health conditions I have been unaware of.

I'm absolutely not suggesting that all jobs are available to people with certain conditions, but I think some ill or disabled people are written off by potential employers, or write themselves off, when they are still capable of work.

Thank you for everyone's input.

Poster who said its getting to me... it is! I won't deny it. Just because I'm struggling so much.

Had a good day so far though and quite productive, so maybe I'll pull through. Still worry about others very much.

I also of course completely agree that sick or disabled people can be written off by employers wayyy to easily and that needs to change! Some people can do something with support, but the support isn't there. My employer is amazing tbh, cant do enough for me.

I'm not really referring to PIP - I know that's on the flux too though. I'm referring to the Work Capability Assessment they use for both (NI based) New Style Employment and Support Allowance, and Universal Credit. Making it harder to get accepted as too unwell to work for either at all. Sick notes being harder to get so SSP is even in question in reality. Current government have been talking of changing these things massively.. other parties not really said they won't.

I'm a benefits adviser, ironically. The changes that are being suggested for out-of-work sickness benefits are extreme. PIP is too ofc, but my post wasnt really about that.

Just hope it either doesn't happen, or the changes don't leave people with no hope.

You do also realise there are different levels of disability in all of your examples?

Just because these people you worked with could work doesn't mean others with the same named condition but different needs can.

I often say I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, I don't.

I have a rare connective tissue, vascular and joint disease, that also causes urinary incontinence. FUN

When I meet you in Tescos I have Rheumatoid Arthritis as that's something you understand and also you'll say how are you?

And should my head be hanging off and by arse be through the head backwards my answer will be "I'm grand! How are you?"

I'd wager that's how it is for 99% of disabled people you know too.

*arse be through the hedge backwards

We are about to have a new government who as far as I can tell have their faults but are not actively evil, unlike the current lot.

Things can only get better.

Of course you are right. This government talk as if all jobs are incredibly flexible, understanding, supportive etc. of course they’re not. Most jobs are dysfunctional and the complete opposite.

This really worries me too OP. I had no idea the WCA & ESA in general is considered as too lax & open to “abuse”. I carried on in work to the detriment of my health for years until only recently & was desperate to remain in it. Apart from being able to financially survive - it was all I had left that chronic illness & disability had taken from me. I would love to be able to work now.

I think it’s easy to say oh it’s all government rhetoric when your life is dependant on external sources (ie the state) & those sources are going to be made harder to qualify for. It’s terrifying to think that when in dire need, the state is going to make it very difficult/even harder to support you.

If you OP, who works in welfare benefits yourself while also struggling with your own health & ability remain in occupation, can be saying this, then it’s no wonder swathes of the disabled community are feeling uncertain & anxious about reforms.

I (didn’t realise it at the time but) was fortunate that one of my consultants provided a very detailed functional assessment of the severity & impact of my chronic conditions. This is not always available however for every disabled individual to get. And as there is no more treatment that can help me, & no services that I can be referred on to, this one letter will become dated & understandably perhaps, no longer considered a current & therefore reflective picture of my condition in x yrs time. (Despite them saying my prognosis is poor & looks unlikely to improve significantly).

While rightly the emphasis needs to be on reliable, solid, medical proof that a person is unable to work, getting such proof is already a lottery.

I think it’s only too easy for it to get to you when your ability to survive is at the mercy of such external forces.

And if sick note culture is endemic & perpetuated by time poor GP’s - won’t moving the problem onto specialists to gate-keep & determine, create further problems? When getting to see a specialist is incredibly difficult in the first place with current waiting lists & availability of services.

Will new positions be created of DWP (or contracted out) “specialists” tasked with assessing & providing this medical proof of occupational ability (much like in PIP) for ESA?

Where nearly half of all claimants are rejected first time, & “specialists” whilst having health backgrounds are in no way specialists or have expertise in all the conditions they assess for.

With PIP at least there are tribunals, where a staggering 70% of claims initially rejected are overturned in court.
Not everyone is capable of pursuing a claim through lengthy & stressful court proceedings or are able to fight.
Is this how the most vulnerable individuals in society should be treated? To have to fight to get the DWP to overturn their initial decision of you?

I find the narrative that disabled people should work if they can - but somehow aren’t - really damaging & unhelpful.

Where is all the research to say that x % of disabled people want to & can work?
As though it is a choice to be on benefits.

If this is the case support those individuals into supportive working environments rather than punitively making it harder for the majority to receive the support they simply & desperately, I should add, need to survive.

Rant over! In solidarity though x