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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think endocrinologists don’t really know. Gestational diabetes, high fasting glucose, OGTT.

19 replies

amoobaa · 18/06/2024 12:41

It's a long one.

Any endocrinologists out there?

I’m at a complete loss. I’m hoping if I post here, there may be some women with the same experience or someone who can shed some light.

There's a lot of type two diabetes in my family (father’s side).

My Dad, both aunts, my uncle, my brother (and my cousins on that side both developed gestational diabetes). Oh and my mum is currently pre-diabetic.

I did what I thought was a sensible thing (now not so sure!) when I was 10 weeks pregnant with my son (he’s now 3)- I bought a little glucose meter from boots (you can prick you finger and take glucose readings).

I did this to keep an eye in my glucose levels and to help me see how my body processed/ responded to meals. I wanted to be prepared to make healthy adjustments so that (if I did develop gestational diabetes) I would be able to manage it as well as possible.

I mentioned this to the team during early appointments and they raised their eyebrows at my readings (said they were quite high and immediately booked me in with the diabetes team).

they got me to submit my readings and after two weeks said I had gestational diabetes.

they said they didn’t need to do the oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) because it was clear I had gestational diabetes so why put me through an unpleasant test.

Now here’s the problem… the only thing that was ever out of range was my morning (fasting) glucose reading.

They don’t want to see it above 5.2

if you get 5.3 or more three days in a row, BOOM intervention central- they prescribe insulin. at least thats what they did in that trust.

However, I made some diet changes and managed to keep my levels at 5.2 until late in the third trimester.

they prescribed me insulin at the very end but with a tweak (I ate protein just before bed) I didn’t need it.

if I needed it then of course I’d take it. It was an ivf pregnancy so I am well used to injecting myself and I just wanted to do (still want to do) whatever is best for my child.

With this diagnosis came a lot of stress and anxiety (“your baby is at higher risk of stillbirth”) and they wanted to induce me because (despite nobody knowing why) babies whose mum's have gestational diabetes are at a slightly greater risk of stillbirth.

Of course, despite my great glucose control, that terrified the shit out of me and I accepted induction just before his due date.

he was back to back. It was awful. I can’t begin to describe the pain. I was nil by mouth. I was pumped full of drugs. It spiralled into an emergency c section. The post labour ward was like hell on earth. It was covid. I haemorrhaged twice. It was the worst experience of my life. I’d rather have ten craniotomy’s than go through that again (I’ve had a craniotomy).

Fast forward a year from the birth, I’m seen by an experienced specialist endocrinologist. She looks at me, declares I’m slim, my blood work is perfect, they never actually did an OGTT so she doesn’t know if I ever actually had gestational diabetes! WTAF! So maybe I never needed to prick my fingers 4 times a day for the whole pregnancy, or be induced??

she does more tests (I get glucose injected into my veins and bloods taken to see how my pancreas reacts…) I pass with flying colours.

She really questions whether I ever had gestational diabetes ESPECIALLY (and this is key) because I never had any problem with my glucose levels after eating or indeed any time at all, except my morning (fasted) glucose readings.

apparently your pancreas regulates your glucose after food intake and it’s your liver that regulates things when you’re waking up after sleeping (fasting).

She recommends that for my next pregnancy I don't test my sugar levels AT ALL in early pregnancy. She says I should just wait for the OGTT. She says it can be done a bit earlier than normal (16-20 weeks) but that I may well pass it and then we’ll go from there.

she says it’s imperative that I get the test done because without this, I can’t be formally diagnosed with gestational diabetes.

I do as I’m told. She liaises with the maternity team. plan in place.

Unfortunately I have two miscarriages. This makes me nervous and so when I get pregnant again (I’m currently 13 weeks), I go ahead and test, just to see.

I simply cannot fathom why the doctors would have prescribed me insulin when my morning readings were just slightly above the threshold and yet now I’m being told that it really doesn’t matter one iota- even if they are consistently high. How does that make logical sense?

When I find out I'm pregnant we relocate and I have a new team at a new hospital. I tell them the history. They tell me to test! I test.

as I expected my levels are consistently high in the morning. All perfect during the day.

As an aside, I have a scan with a very experienced fetal medicine specialist during the move. I ask him about this. And he says it’s only the morning readings that are elevated… And they’re not too high. He’s not concerned about the baby. Stop testing.

I go to my appointment with the new team this morning (consultant endocrinologist) And he says “oh your readings are high in the morning. You’ve got gestational diabetes. No need for an oral glucose tolerance test. You’ll need medicine"

He merrily tells me that my high morning glucose is toxic to my baby and he only booked me in for the OGTT because I said the previous consultant specifically told me to get it done. he wasn't too keen on booking it.

I'm totally confused.

Thinking about it logically…

Thet are happy for your glucose to go up to 7.7 an hour after a meal. But if your glucose goes above 5.2 first thing in the morning then they panic.

why? Does anyone actually know? he can't tell me.

If it’s simply because a rise in glucose is toxic to the baby then why does it matter what time of day?

my glucose might be elevated to 6.5 for a mere 30 minutes once a day in the morning (there are lots of different reasons the morning glucose can be elevated). Why does that matter so much when it can be 7 after meals without anyone raising an eyebrow? and its not (its 5.8 after breakfast this morning!!)

I understand that it signals different things and i know they are different readings showing different processes. but nobody can actually tell me. It's frustrating because these decisions will have a huge impact on the choices I have for birth.

Why is one top endocrinologist telling me to do the OGTT and see if I pass… and to ignore the morning readings…

Yet the one i saw this morning (in charge of my care) is saying that it doesn't matter whether i pass it or not. I still have gestational diabetes and he already wants to induce me?

anyone? :(

OP posts:
AgentJohnson · 18/06/2024 12:49

Wait for the results of the tests and if still not happy seek a 2nd opinion. And for the love of god, stop with your own testing. I know it’s all over Tik Tok and SM but you really don’t need to.

Scrambledchickens · 18/06/2024 13:01

You don’t have to accept any intervention that you don’t want to. Obstetricians always advise along the latest guidelines but these are just guidelines. You sound like to really do want to have agency over your pregnancy and decisions. I would advise asking if there is a consultant midwife at your hospital and form a relationship with them. Women don’t always follow advice and are completely within their rights not too. It’s all a matter of risk perception.

amoobaa · 18/06/2024 13:22

@AgentJohnson Thank you and I agree with you completely about stopping testing. the problem is, it’s a meter that the hospital gave me and (the new) team told me to use- I’ve not done any of my own testing this pregnancy.

Maybe after the results, a second opinion is going to be best- I’m just really wary of annoying the endocrinologist.

OP posts:
amoobaa · 18/06/2024 13:29

@Scrambledchickens Thank you that’s a really good idea. I’ll look into that today… a consultant midwife. Perhaps they would be a good person to go over the trauma of the last birth as well.

All the staff I’ve met so far have been really lovely.

I’m just gutted that the advice is so conflicting because I know I won’t have any confidence in turning down an intervention I don’t want when someone says that by doing so I’m putting my baby at risk.

He already intimated that today. He said that I need to let go of whatever it is I’m hoping for and instead make decisions in the best interest of the baby. As if that isn’t my entire quest to begin with.

Something must have got lost in translation because the only thing I’m interested in is the welfare of my baby. I’m terrified of making a decision that isn’t good for them.

OP posts:
amoobaa · 18/06/2024 13:36

@AgentJohnson I just re-read my original post and can see I said I went ahead and did my own test.

It was the testing the new hospital told me to do with the meter they gave me.

I guess I feel like I ‘couldn’t help myself and did the testing despite being told not to’ because the other endocrine specifically told me not to.

So I feel like I didn’t something wrong. but just to be clear, the first test I did this pregnancy was using the meter issued to me by the new team.

I feel like I should have said no, that’s not the plan. But I was painfully curious so went along with it.

And now the new endocrinologist is saying it’s far better to know than to ignore it.

Which way to go… I’ve no idea yet.

OP posts:
deplorabelle · 18/06/2024 14:36

I'm sorry I'm not a healthcare professional but my experience of GD was similar - all sorts of conflicting advice and unhelpful lack of coordination between services. The testing regime they wanted me to follow (pre food readings only which were all perfect at all times including diagnosis so WTF) told me absolutely nothing so I ended up doing my own post prandial readings so I could monitor if the dietary changes were sufficient.

Personally I would not refuse induction and I would test as they've requested. If you don't want induction, it is perfectly acceptable to ask what they can offer instead (monitoring visits etc). Or to say you don't want induction at 38 weeks unless there's a significant clinical development but would induce at another time point (eg exactly 40 weeks). But that is just my personal opinion. I'm not a HCP.

stackhead · 18/06/2024 14:45

Fasting readings are the most important as they show your baseline blood sugar without food interfering. This is my second GD pregnancy and I was diagnosed MUCH earlier than in my 1st and only 'failed' on the fasting readings which have still yet to be in range (despite increasing amounts of insulin).

I'm not massively worried about this, and nor are the medical professionals because baby is measuring almost smack on the 50th centile. HOWEVER should this change then we'll start to worry. Too much glucose crossing the placenta means the potential both for poor blood sugar control in baby once they're born and increased placental deterioration.

That said, I would wait for the oral GTT and stop finger pricking in the mean time and deal with the results after that.

You never have to agree to an induction and you can push for further scans before you decide to determine how baby is coping.

MujeresLibres · 18/06/2024 14:49

I'm a type 1 diabetic from a family of type 1 and type 2 diabetics, not a healthcare provider, so take or leave this as you wish.

The reason why high fasting glucose can be a worry is because it may have been 12+ hours since your last meal and if your body hasn't got your glucose under control in that time, it may indicate something is going on. Also the possible length of time the foetus may have been exposed to elevated glucose levels - not just the usual 4-5 hours between meals.

I don't know if you were over treated for your first pregnancy and I think you are right to be asking those kind of questions. Perhaps if you were able to try a Freestyle Libre or similar, you would be able to get a clearer picture of what's happening, rather than the snapshots of finger blood tests? Best wishes for your pregnancy.

MoserRothOrangeandAlmond · 18/06/2024 14:57

Tbh I think you were sensible with your history to test blood sugars. Rather than the oral glucose test.
It made me feel ill and my baby was very hyperactive after the test. If I become pregnant again....(if I'm lucky enough) then I would opt for own monitoring.

My fasting was fine....my 2 hour sugar was 7.8mmol. So right on the cusp. My HBA1c is perfect, I've never had high fasting levels and able to maintain blood sugar levels via diet. I was only tested because my sister had GD (she has PCOS and has higher insulin resistance)
I find some endocrinologists are blasé about GD.

My baby was born small for gestational age (then diagnosed IUGR) due placenta failure so I had to be induced.

The importance of fasting levels is that that shows your baseline sugar without food interference. Baby is being exposed to more sugar without food interference if that is what the fasting levels are.

Greenlittecat · 18/06/2024 15:01

I've had gestational diabetes 4 times, but not (yet) prediabetic outside of pregnancy.

As I understand it, fasting levels are the most important as your baby is basically sitting in sugar all night and drinks more amniotic fluid (so you prodcue more). Unfortunately, this does increase risks for both you and baby.

As I understand it, if you have high fasting numbers you do have Gestational Diabetes. The fasting numbers are the hardest to control but normally the first line is metformin, and I'm suprised (and disappointed for you!) this wasn't offered to you before insulin.

Once formally diagnosed you should be put in touch with a GD diabetes midwife who will be able to (hopefully!) Answer your questions with more knowledge regarding your complete medical and family history.

amoobaa · 18/06/2024 18:50

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply.

I feel like I’ve got more insight via your posts than an entire consultation with an obstetric endocrinologist.

@deplorabelle It’s so I setting to have conflicting advice isn’t it! I understand they can’t always have the answers but some of the advice I’ve had is the complete opposite of advice I’ve had from another equally qualified person.

I’m surprised they wanted pre meal readings rather than post- did you ever get to the bottom why that was? Good thing you did your own testing!

Yes I’m sure I’ll be too worried about risk to refuse an induction. Will definitely ask about extra monitoring.

@stackhead thank you so much for explaining all that. That makes more sense.

It’s really useful to know this “Too much glucose crossing the placenta means the potential both for poor blood sugar control in baby once they're born and increased placental deterioration.”

I wonder why they didn’t tell me any of this?? Madness.

your input has genuinely changed my perspective and I feel a lot better equipped.

@MujeresLibres thank you for your reply, that’s really useful to know about the high fasting glucose. I did ask about CGM for this exact reason (who knows if my baby is swimming in glucose all night OR is just being exposed to a max of 7.0 for 40 mins during the waking process?) and they seemed really dismissive of it- they said it’s not reliable. Which I find hard to believe, considering it’s recommended for the management of treatment decisions for type 1. I strongly suspect it’s because it hasn’t been officially approved for gestational diabetes specifically so they can’t claim it’s evidence based and therefore won’t touch it with a barge pole.

Maybe I’ll try and get one somehow and see for myself ;then at least I’ll know what my baby is or is not being exposed to rather than assumptions based on stats.

Thank you for your well wishes, I’ve been worrying all day and it really means a lot.

@MoserRothOrangeandAlmond thank you- it’s hard to distinguish between what’s healthy self education and what is me just losing the plot! The last thing I need is to get myself labelled as a problematic anxious patient… then they’ll want to discuss all this even less for fear of me becoming hysterical… which won’t help- I work best with transparent communication and the opportunity to ask questions so I can understand what’s happening to my body.

Did you get a gestational diabetes diagnosis in the end? And do you think that poor glucose control was related to the placenta issues?

@Greenlittecat thank you so much. I got the diagnosis this afternoon- the midwife called and I’m going on their GD education teams call this Thursday.

I do wonder if there is any point in having the OGTT if it’s not going to change the outcome, the diagnosis or the treatment plan in any way…

Sounds like it will just be unnecessary stress on the baby. I can’t help but think “you’re saying glucose is toxic but here, drink LOADS and let’s see what happens… not that it will change anything…”

About the metformin- it will be offered by this new team but the last team were different and they basically said that there is less risk to the baby if they use insulin because it’s ‘cleaner’ meaning that it doesn’t cross over the placenta like metformin does. So they suggested a low dose of slow/ long acting insulin at bed time.

I’d better to get a CGM to make sure it doesn’t trigger a hypo whilst I’m sleeping…

To everyone- thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it.

it’s all so hard to decipher. As an example, I ate pizza and ice cream and one hour later my glucose was 6.8 but in the morning my fasted levels are between 5.4 and 7… so I have higher fasting than post meal.

OP posts:
Greenlittecat · 18/06/2024 19:04

I only had the OGTT with my first. After that I just monitored my numbers and was diagnosed that way.

The way I see it is GD is progressive. I was diagnosed at 6 weeks with my 2nd and could eat anything, it was just my fasting numbers that caught me out. By 36 weeks I really struggled with diet management as the safe foods, pairings, protein amount became harder to juggle as my insulin resistance increased.

Also, if you are having high carb/ high sugar its worth also testing at the 2 hour mark. This is whats recommended if you have a takeaway etc as the high fat content slows the release of sugar into your bloodstream

Something that made a noticable difference in my fasting numbes was making sure you throughly wash your hands when testing fasting! I was caught out a few times with crazy high readings when actually my hands were not as clean as I thought they were 😅

You seem extremely well educated on GD so I'm sure you've come across this already, but the GDUK website is a fab resource:

https://www.gestationaldiabetes.co.uk/

MujeresLibres · 18/06/2024 19:11

@amamoobaa pizza and ice cream is a high fat meal, so that will slow down the release of the glucose in the food. I'd expect it to peak at about 4 hours after eating. Something like pasta with tomato sauce (a meal high in fast carbs) would peak much quicker, around an hour or two after eating.

To do something really basic that slows down glucose release, eat the parts of your meal that are protein, fibre and fat before any starchy carbs. Obviously this won't work for every meal though, like the pasta example above.

Regarding cgms, they work best when you are well-hydrated, and the readings on the first day of use also tend to be less reliable, so remember that if you decide to try one. Hope all goes well.

stackhead · 18/06/2024 19:14

You don't need a CGM to monitor hypos overnight, you'd know by waking symptoms if you'd had one. Same as if you're blood sugars go too high during the day, it genuinely makes you feel like shit (or it does me anyway! With shakiness, sweaty and a fast heart rate).

Also you can get false hypos if you lie on the arm with the CGM.

You don't need to treat a hypo if you're not on insulin, they're called false hypos.

I cannot recommend this website and the associated Facebook group enough, so much more informative and helpful then the diabetic team and midwives!

https://www.gestationaldiabetes.co.uk/

Gestational Diabetes UK • Gestational Diabetes UK

Gestational Diabetes UK is dedicated to offering support and evidence based research to women diagnosed with gestational diabetes in the UK and Ireland

https://www.gestationaldiabetes.co.uk

Greenlittecat · 18/06/2024 19:15

MujeresLibres · 18/06/2024 19:11

@amamoobaa pizza and ice cream is a high fat meal, so that will slow down the release of the glucose in the food. I'd expect it to peak at about 4 hours after eating. Something like pasta with tomato sauce (a meal high in fast carbs) would peak much quicker, around an hour or two after eating.

To do something really basic that slows down glucose release, eat the parts of your meal that are protein, fibre and fat before any starchy carbs. Obviously this won't work for every meal though, like the pasta example above.

Regarding cgms, they work best when you are well-hydrated, and the readings on the first day of use also tend to be less reliable, so remember that if you decide to try one. Hope all goes well.

Just to add, if you cool the pasta down and then reheat it you are able to tolerate more! No idea of the science behind it but my GD midwife taught me that trick.

MeinKraft · 18/06/2024 19:38

'it’s all so hard to decipher. As an example, I ate pizza and ice cream and one hour later my glucose was 6.8 but in the morning my fasted levels are between 5.4 and 7… so I have higher fasting than post meal.'

The doctors are right to be concerned about those fasting levels. Your blood sugars were probably high for a prolonged period as pizza is so high in fat and protein it delayed the impact of the carbs on your blood sugars. Try having more GD friendly dinners and maybe a rich tea or two before bed and hopefully your levels will be lower in the morning. If not (and it's pretty likely not tbh) medication is the only option. I preferred insulin to metformin, I didn't find metformin that helpful and it made me feel queasy.

deplorabelle · 18/06/2024 19:57

I've no idea why I had to do pre readings instead of post. It made no sense at all. I didn't ever let on I was doing post-prandial readings of my own. I just kept two sets of records and they were very pleased with what I did.

I think it would be sensible for you to follow the instructions your main caregiver tells you and don't let on if you're doing other readings too.

Do be careful about your fingers if you're taking extra finger pricks every day.

Oblomov24 · 18/06/2024 19:59

"yet now I’m being told that it really doesn’t matter one iota- even if they are consistently high. "

I'm a T1 diabetic since birth, so 50 years. I've had 2 ds's under kings London supervision.

Fasting blood sugars are important because they tell you what has been going on overnight, and since dawn.

itsjustGin · 18/06/2024 20:14

Im suprised they went straight to insulin.

I had GD, diagnosed only through fasting blood levels, the fact i was drinking enough for a horse and bad morning sickness.

I passed the horrid sugary drink test.

I was fine managing with dietary control for a while but at about 7 months lost control. My doctor went for metformin instead of insulin as a stepping stone. Never had to go further than that.

My little one made a surprise appearance at 35 weeks as my waters went and i'd had so many problems by that point that i was on daily monitoring in hospital (the GD was only minor compared to the other issues i had) that we decided she was safer out than in.

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