To wonder whether this could be neurodiversity?

[VanillaMummy]

DD is in Year 8. She’s always been quite introverted and on the edge of things socially although she does well with her work. She has a good friend from primary at another school whom she still sees lots of. Other than that though, she rarely does anything with peers out of school.

Yesterday she was telling me how overwhelming she finds the school dining hall. It’s so big with so much background noise. The tables are for 9 or 10. She says she finds it hard to focus on conversation whilst eating at the same time. She can’t keep up and so tends to zone out instead and not even try.

She struggles with unstructured time with peers generally and doesn’t like break times. She says it’s not that anyone is unpleasant to her (mostly) but she finds following a group conversation really hard. She also has difficulty bringing herself into a conversation and so gets left out a lot. She prefers situations where there’s an adult in charge to structure things, make sure everyone gets a chance, etc. After lunch she’ll often go to the library to do her homework as she finds it easier to ‘focus on just one thing’ in a quiet place, rather than go back to the classroom and just hang out with others.

She’s a bit a maths geek, although at a selective school thankfully this doesn’t’t seem to be an issue and I’m not aware that she’s ever been teased. Her interests are not very mainstream though which I don’t think helps her socially. She’s quite child-like and doesn’t really follow teen pop culture. I’m not sure whether she’s just young for her age (her older sister seemed much more mature at this point) or whether there’s more to it.

She did see the school counsellor last year (at staff’s suggestion) to try to help her become more socially integrated. If anything I think this made things worse. The counsellor just put pressure on her to make more effort to talk to people, etc. without any appreciation of the things which make this difficult for her. She ended up getting frustrated and feeling like she was failing.

I’m wondering whether there’s a better way to help her? Does it sound as if there could be neurodiversity here? If so, what do we do about it?

Sounds very nd to me.

Some of it does yes. But she might also just be an introvert who loves STEM subjects. Either way I think it’s good that she seems to be talking to you and you seem to have an open dialogue.

I think the things about structure, needing quiet, needing an adult and being young for her age are the key things.

ND are 3 years emotionally behind NT

She sounds very like I was at secondary school, and my DD. We are both neurodivergent, although I didn't find out until I was in my 40s.

She sounds very much how I was at school! A maths geek, not really having close friends but equally not falling out with people; not liking big room and big situations. Preferring adults to be in charge so that I don’t have to navigate the situation without guidance.

I think just keep encouraging her to talk it through with you, perhaps encourage her to occasionally step out of her comfort zone to connect with people, but she doesn’t sound as though she’s unhappy with the situation so just keep supporting her to be authentically who she is.

I can be sociable when I need to be, but frequently wonder whether I’m masking to do so (it’s not conscious, and officially I’m completely neuro-typical).

There's certainly enough there to speak to the school SENCO or her GP to explore options of what to do next.

For what it's worth, your DD sounds lovely, though I can imagine school must be tough for her.

She sounds soooo similar to my daughter. It's hard for you when they find school life more difficult and don't do the "normal" things with friends.

Not sure if it will be of use but my daughter was formally assessed by the NHS but did not receive diagnosis because:

1. She showed evidence of empathy
2. She had some eye contact
3. Could describe things using her imagination
4. Adapted to change ok (as long as she's told about it in advance)

This does sound like it could be signs of autism. I didn't have a clue about it until my daughter started to experience autistic burnout at the end of year 7. This paper by the Autistic Girls Network - Keeping it all inside PDF | Autistic Girls Network - really helped me to understand how autism can present in girls. You might find it helpful - I've found the Autistic Girls Network, and their Facebook group, to be a fantastic source of information.

Thanks everyone.

I guess the main thing I’m wondering is whether she could be helped to keep up with a group better. Is this what social skills training would do or is that just about things like practising making polite small talk? I don’t think she has any issues doing that. It’s much more subtle. She misses cues on when she can bring herself in. But it’s perhaps just lack of practice and/or interest rather than being wired differently. I just don’t know. Yet a diagnosis feels like a big step and I’m not sure it would be helpful to her. I don’t want to draw attention to any of this too much or let her feel like anything is wrong with her.

If your daughter does happen to be autistic, social skills training could be a really unhelpful thing for her as it can encourage masking which is a poor coping mechanism and can lead to really poor mental health.

This sounds very like me

I'm now late 30s and believe I am autistic but not diagnosed

As a previous poster said, join autistic girls network of face book (and see their website) to see if she is neurodivergent. Social skills training will just teach her to mask more and will lead to burnout if she is neurodivergent. The fact that the counselling made it worse for her could suggest she could be. Look in to this now before it all gets too much for her and she heads in to burnout (speaking from experience with my daughter).

Just from what you say it is possible yes.

My autistic DD is 12 and still very young for her age. It's tough for them as with my DD she started Y7 with more of the maturity of a Y5. There is so much for them to learn and take on board - homework and packing bags and equipment. DD struggles with noise and crowds and can also struggle with joining/following conversations. She likes to go to the Learning support centre where she does colouring or drawing with some other girls. She also has a Learning Mentor she can go to.

I hope your DD can get the support she needs.

I do all of those things and I’m autistic 🤷‍♀️

In fact some of those ideas are very old fashioned. It’s widely accepted that autistic people are empathetic and earlier research which said they aren’t is wrong. Eye contact is part of masking, which girls are known to be better at. And lots of us are very imaginative - I’m a published author for example.

OP maybe your DD would benefit from being assessed, then at least you would know.

She sounds like me when I was a child. I'm 54 now and only diagnosed in the last few years. I've got an early start tomorrow, so will come back to the thread.

Out of curiosity how did a diagnose help you? I’m considering testing but at the same time I wonder if say, I’m ND, what would that change on go forward basis

Interesting people are saying this about social skills training. I hadn’t realised this. That may well explain why counselling made things worse.

@Blimpton I’ve not mentioned anything to her. I’m not sure how she would take it.

Not all SS is 'bad' - the ones that encourage eye contact to make friends etc aren't great - but ones that focus on sharing what conversation partners may expect to see and to help the child find workaround strategies, are good! Ditto an intervention that promotes self advocacy, to help her share how she wishes to communicate and so on, could be good

Sounds like neurodiversity to me but I would be wary of making her fit into some mould. Maybe she does not want to be social and is quite happy doing her own thing and implying to her she should be behaving in a certain way could make her feel she is failing. If she finds the school dining room overwhelming it might be worth speaking to the school to see if she can eat her lunch elsewhere. Both my GDs are ASD and one in particular struggles with eating in noisy places so she is allowed to eat somewhere quiet with just one friend. Having a safe quiet place to go like the library sounds like she is adapting.

As others have said masking is not great so having some sort of skills training to imply she should be behaving like everyone else may not be to her benefit and damage her mental health. Does she say that she feels she needs support or wants some things to change to make her happier?

I have ADHD, also tend to zone out especially in group conversations, especially when there are multiple conversations going on around me.

But those things don’t indicate ADHD in themselves (or, autism/other neurodivergences, as far as I understand, although I know less about those).

Could be worth getting her assessed if you think this is impacting on her?

This was me at school but with reading. Diagnosed in my 30s ADHD, medication and knowledge of my neurodiversity changed my life as it explained things. I think you being aware of her possible ND will allow you to support her better without telling her if you’re not ready to do this yet.

Sounds like autism (SEN teacher here with psychology background).

You need a second opinion. As PP says, that's an outrageous list! Was DC actually assessed by specialists or just screened out by a team who triage referrals?

@ILoveDaysOff I’m amazed to hear they gave those reasons. My son has diagnosed ASD - he has eye contact and does feel empathy. They sound out of date with recent research into ASD and hyper empathy which autistic people experience

This was an NHS assessment. We filled in paperwork which was triaged and waited a good few years for the actual assessment which was with a paediatric consultant and a speech therapist. They are a few of the comments given as to why she didn't meet the "diagnostic threshold".

They also said no social skills training is available via NHS whether autistic or not but it may be available via schools (again this would be regardless of a diagnosis... Purely whether they need help or not)

I am not sure if this kind of thing is a bit of a "postcode lottery"? Help is definitely available via school though if child is willing to accept it.