To think that the difference between Leave entitlements for teachers in the UK and Ireland is crazy

[Positivenancy]

Off the back of threads I’ve been reading today in regards to teachers in the UK being able to take time off for a weddings and other reasons it made me realise that teachers in Ireland have much more of an allowance to take time off for these situations. For example.

• Three force majeure days per 12 months
• Illness, I’ve up to 5 days for immediate family members and three days for near Family
• Bereavement leave from one to 20 days depending on the relation of the person who is deceased.
• Each teacher gets a weeks worth of paid leave when they get married
• A days leave to attend the wedding of immediate family excluding cousins however you can use an EPV day for this.
• EPV days are extra personal vacation days and they get five of these per school year. They must do courses in order to earn these days.
• They got a days leave for graduations of immediate family members.
• They get five days paid study/exam leave.
• One day leave for attending court for separation or divorce proceedings.
• Paid leave for jury service

I’m sure there’s more leaves that I don’t know about, but it just seems that they’re a lot more amenable here.

I’m not a teacher, so this is not me posting in any way shape or form,this is me merely pointing out that I feel teachers in the UK got a hard deal and perhaps they could use this to fight more for what they are entitled to. It’s a thankless job most of the time and I don’t think it would be too much to ground people leave for important days moments in their lives and their families lives around them.

Our school uses a lot of team teaching in Maths, English, Irish so there could be three teachers and one or two SNAs in a room in 25 ten year olds. It really helps the children get really quality teaching.

From some volunteering at the school Board I know that a lot of SNAs are assigned multiple children where assessment hasn't taken place yet.

For example or would be unusual for incoming junior infants to have an assessment.

It is important for the children who have SNA support to, where appropriate be with just children. So SNA s do move room to room but that is also strategic to support independence and to reduce individual reliance on one SNA.

Most teachers have also worked in other industries. There's also many other people who have only worked in one industry all their lives. I never understand why this is thrown at teachers as a reason they don't live in the 'real world'.

It is important for the children who have SNA support to, where appropriate be with just children. So SNA s do move room to room but that is also strategic to support independence and to reduce individual reliance on one SNA.

I appreciate that @Marblessolveeverything.
And it's not such a problem in a larger school with several SNAs I think.

It is, however, a big problem for small rural schools that might have one SNA with a number of children to support. One child going to a sporting event or on a school trip means the others are left unsupported.

Or two children are approaching meltdown in different classrooms at the same time...

This can be a real problem for small schools.

I know several of the teachers I had in secondary school in Ireland back in the late 70s and early 80s stayed in the school until retirement. Not all, but definitely a lot.

@Largebrownchair of course I appreciate the privilege of having my children in a large school.

I do hope the government increases the budgets to support having more support. It could make such a difference to all the children. I can see the improvement in Further and Higher education a lot more access and support becoming the norm.

Why wouldn't a teacher stay for their career? They do CPD and bring a wealth of experience.

There are lots of jobs for teachers in Ireland. All the schoolsnar working towards taking on more to run SEN classes, language classes and to reduce ratio.

You want professional level results, but you treat the professionals working to deliver those results as if they were untrustworthy underlings...

How is that working out for England in terms of -
International rankings?
Ability of school leavers to read, write, do maths?
Teacher retention?

Yes, I think the larger schools are better placed to provide SEN support at the moment.

In general, that's not something parents know or think about when choosing a school. In many cases (of neurodiversity in particular) a child entering school won't have a diagnosis anyway. So parents often don't know what they'll need in the future.

Well, yeah... that's why I came back to Ireland after years teaching in England. I made sure to buy my house and set my life up here because I deserve three month holidays every summer. 😎

Exactly

UK trained
Worked in Dublin a few years ago

Started at 9am
Kids left at 2.30pm

Planning was light so took around an hour max a day
Marked as I went along through each day
Once a month kids left at 12.30 for the monthly staff meeting

It was such a pleasure teaching in this system
I could never return to the UK to teach

No ofsted nonsense
No regular observations
Checking marking

Allowed to get on with the job and really enjoyed it

UK teachers are outstanding and they work so so hard
I hate the system for how they are treated

@Largebrownchair there is need for a bit of joined up thinking from Early years into Primary.

Yes I know in my area in Dublin the local schools will steer children with potential support needs towards our school as it has a lot of teachers who went back and retrained in special education and some in Autism support, I understand St Pats has great teacher courses.

It is working out well but fully appreciate it isn't the norm. I do think there is something to be said about having a larger SEN support cohort in one school versus very little in a multitude in a small geographic area.

Presumably under your proposal any out of hours work such as marking or parents' evenings will be eligible for TOIL?

@Largebrownchair
You're correct, the government does not pay for a sub teacher for EPV days

In a small school the Board of Management would usually privately pay a sub for those days but in larger schools, pupils would be split up among other classes

DH is a teacher and his view (usually, I’ve not asked him today) is that having 13 weeks or whatever it is off per year is really quite nice. It’s certainly saved us an absolute fortune for one as we have no options for holidays childcare.

This. DCs English state school has similar rules to the original post- teachers can have term time off for specific reasons… not to just have a week in IBiza for eg but yes for life events, study, etc

@thisisasurvivor As you have worked in both systems I have to ask - why do you think Ireland scores well internationally on education?

i lived in the UK but did not have my children in school there. But they have longer days, more extra curricular stuff, seem to have more facilities in their buildings.

the education system in Ireland seems underfunded, schools struggle to survive, the “voluntary contribution” seems to help keep the lights on. What makes it work out so well in the end?

My fury reading this 💔🤬🤬🤬

For those saying give up some of the holidays, we aren't paid for most holidays we are paid 4 weeks of the year like everyone else and we do work in the summer. We also pay the highest voices for holidays as we don't get to choose any of our own leave.

Would love that, with it I'll take only having to work my contracted hours, some flexibility to WFH, an hour for lunch and ability to go to the loo when I wanted. I'm sure parents would be fine with parents' evenings and meetings only being scheduled in standard office hours?

I get the impresson that it depends school by school. I think:

• a day off your or your child or partners graduation is totally reasonable.
• a day off for your child, parent or sibling reasonable (if the wedding is on a weekday or if travel needed)
• for funerals off is reasonable

However, I also think:

• time off for your own wedding is unreasonable as it should be arranged in those

It all depends upon the circumstances

Not a teacher but work with third level and have had some experience of cross over in teacher training projects.

Ireland ranks third behind Estonia and Switzerland. This is mainly due to our broad curriculum which will suit more children. Our approach to teacher training changes quickly in recent years
, curriculum change process has improved not perfect but definitely can see the progression.

Ireland isn't a mini UK, a lot of times when I work on projects with UK participants there is the expectation that we run a UK mini system.

So things like our children tend to start school later, typically at five. Nearly all students progress to the Leaving Cert typically at age 18 and our uptake of third level is really high. I read here about having attained low GCSE results learners not having access to A levels.

There are significant European projects which input funding into education across all levels. We have recently introduced STEAM project work across all levels and there is investment and industry push in ensuring we will have a highly educated workforce to attract the big pharma, tech etc.

Our teachers do have a very hard job, that is education worldwide. But I think our system is more family friendly, with a respectful salary and benefits. My understanding is that isn't comparable in England.

I think a degree of common sense is required. Although teachers have an abundance of holidays, they are also parents and loved ones that require to attend certain occasions, whether they be graduations, funerals and weddings etc.. Surely these can be accommodated. ps... I'm not a teacher, just a parent who is happy to have great teacher's in my child's school.

It’s in common with many many working
people though?

I don’t really know what the solution is for essential jobs. Including my own.

@DdraigGoch ”Presumably under your proposal any out of hours work such as marking or parents' evenings will be eligible for TOIL?” This is another thing - I find teachers labour under the impression that they are the only profession to routinely do work outside of their working hours without time off in lieu. I can assure you this is not the case.

And the poster who thinks that teachers are in the minority in not being able to WFH, get an hour for lunch, go to the loo when they want, etc - again, this does not apply only to teachers, but I don’t see other professions making quite such the song and dance about it!

I get it - teaching is a hard job. Bureaucracy, the clientele, the working environment could all be much better. But it is not a uniquely harder than all other jobs job. Teachers do seem to moan more than other professions though, and that really does sap at the sympathy levels they might otherwise receive. Myself, I’m not really feeling much sympathy at all right now for anyone muttering about having to work outside of M-F, 9-5, since my last work shift was 17 hours beginning at 2.30pm. Lack of sleep might be a factor here. DH works in an entirely unrelated profession, but has good friends who are teachers, and frequently has a good laugh at them when they throw out such complaints as having to do marking after school.

I work in a super challenging school and the main reason I stay is that my headteacher is flexible with leave for my child’s SEND appointments, medical appointments and gives me an hour of leave to see children’s performances when it works out as well as leave for funerals, weddings etc when I need it. I once worked in a school where I had to virtually beg to leave 15 minutes early to attend an occupational health appointment, so I don’t take the goodwill for granted!