To find the system of academic references outdated and exclusionary?

[OptimismvsRealism]

Not as in Harvard Vs Yale style guides - I mean in the context of applications.

If you want to get into a prestigious course, you need to hit up two or three people who will say you are good. Easy enough for people who run in the right circles. Embarrassing, awkward, maybe even a dead end for those who don't. Many references are meaningless because they're about one of 300 undergraduates. Few academics will refuse a reference if asked because they know the system is kind of a racket.

We should get rid of the requirement for references and replace them with backgrounds checks and in person interviews.

Or we would if universities were actually serious about expansion access. Which they're not, really.

Ex was a senior lecturer at a top 10 UK uni. He got emails from many students asking for references. He didn't know most of the students he wrote references for. Because they introduced anonymous marking at the uni he also didn't know whether they were a first class student or flunking their degree. In fact, he had a template and just changed a few details to make it relevant. Based on this, yes, utterly pointless.

In-person interviews would be even worse and more exclusionary. Even more "embarrassing and awkward" as you call it. Being able to shine in interviews has little to do with your ability to study hard and do well in academic courses.

Absolute disagree. An interview is about you and what you bring. Sure some people need more support to prepare and can get that. References are just old boys club or, as above, meaningless obligation churn.

Reference add nothing except an extra layer of "are you OUR sort?"

Anyone can lie at an interview though, you need the ability to see if it's true or not. That's where references come in. And before you say that's what background checks are for, how do you think those work? You contact the people that would otherwise have given a reference. It ends up as the same thing.

My PhD reference was from the Prof who I’d done my fourth year project for (in the lab, five days a week). Of course he knew if I was competent!

Reference add nothing except an extra layer of "are you OUR sort?" Interviews are much of an 'our sort' sort. The way you look, the way you dress, the way you talk, your accent - these are markers which are visible in person and during the interview, but obscured through paper applications.

Applications for Masters aren't really about wowing anybody. It's about satisfying that you have appropriate qualifications, and behaved and worked appropriately throughout your earlier studies. What information would you want to get from candidates at interview?

I was looking at a university PGCE job and it was a real barrier.
I had tutored NQTs for 15 years, I was a qualified teacher, I had a law degree and I’d argue a pretty good candidate for a part time role with student teachers.
25 m+ years on realistically my tutors were not in post, in fact all three universities I studied with have changed name/ merged etc. They wanted 2 or 3 academic references, yet to employ an experienced teacher and student mentor.
I didn’t even both applying and they didn’t recruit. Bit silly they even invited me to apply

Writing them is a pain in the ass.

Then when I was in charge of admissions for a programme, I always read them, but most are so formulaic and say very little, likely because a student was one of many and so the letter writer barely knows them.

I don’t think they are an ‘old boys’ club’ in same way as before. Probably in some places, and maybe for things like a scholarship having one of the ‘right’ people write for you can help a lot, but so much also depends on who is on the selection panel, etc. But I think there is a little less outright cronyism than in the past.

Don’t know what to replace them with though. We have that many applicants, that interviewing them all to an appropriate standard would be difficult.

I'm an admissions tutor for an MA programme and I agree interviews would be even more exclusionary and not particularly helpful for evaluating academic potential. Also not practical, we get hundreds of applications, we can't interview them all.

We don't insist on academic references though, if your last degree was more than 5 years ago.

If you’re talking about references to get into a postgraduate academic course, then it seems reasonable for the university to ask for academic references.

If it’s a long time since you were a student, they might be harder to get. But anyone who has graduated within the last five years should be able to find someone who can describe their academic performance and evaluate their suitability for advanced study. Usually it’s the supervisor of their dissertation or final project, or a similar piece of work that demonstrates their capacity for sustained academic work.

There are usually different expectations of people who wish to study at undergraduate level some years after leaving school, and in that case it’s worth having a conversation with the admissions department.

I complete loads of references every year, several for students I couldn't pick out of a line up.

I'm honest based on their academic performance, position in the class etc. If I know anything of them as a person I'll add that - diligent, pleasant, tenacious, whatever.

I think of it as an extra layer of fact checking that they are who they say they are. It also allows me to add a bit of context to the facts of their application - for example, one of the courses I teach on has the highest entry requirements in the university and the students work extremely hard and get ridiculously high marks. So a student in the bottom half or quarter of that class is still more than suited to postgraduate study and I can explain that.

I don't mind doing them, I have a template, it doesn't take long.

But you do insist on references of some sort, I imagine. Which excludes a lot of people. I am involved in academia too, which is why I know that most reference are meaningless (I've written glowing reports for kids I could barely pick out of a line up) and the need for them puts off a significant number.

Are you joking?? There are hundreds of people in any given undergraduate year group for some courses. References mean absolutely nothing.

I wouldn't necessarily insist on an interview if they have the grades... But I definitely wouldn't ask for references either.

I dispute your claim that ‘references mean absolutely nothing’. Even courses with hundreds of students usually involve a supervised dissertation or project - and usually have larger numbers of staff than small courses. The supervisor is in a good position to comment on a former student’s aptitude for further study. Some supervisors write references at this time of year, while the student’s performance is still fresh in their mind, so that they can be used later. References are usually able to provide useful context for a student’s academic achievements.

If you’ve had a bad experience with an academic reference from someone who didn’t know you, then I’m sorry to hear it. But it’s not reasonable to generalise from that.

I don't know what 'involved in academia' means but I'm literally an admissions tutor saying they're not meaningless.

They are meaningless because the people writing them are making it up as they (we) go along. It's just a barrier to those to shy or badly connected to ask. A box to tick. But you'll still wear your rainbow lanyard and nod earnestly through the social inclusion seminars, I am sure.

Why can't you look at the dissertation instead of a pal's summary of the dissertation?

What are you talking about? No one makes a decision about admitting a student to a postgrad programme by reading their dissertation, when it has already been marked by two or three people. The important things are the strength of the research proposal, in addition to the referees’ assessments of the student’s ability to move from proposal to dissertation. We might read a brief submission of work completed (eg 2000 words), but a strong proposal supported by references from people who can testify about the student’s performance is a better assessment of future performance.