To think parents of private education school children will be fine

[Bluewhitered]

I’ve seen lots of threads on this topic recently. It would be great to have it’s own section so those who want to chat about it with fellow parents , can without an argument.

But private school parents and their children!! We will be just fine. There’s so much smugness and bitterness and hate coming from people who think it’s great the VAT will be added and force some out. In fact I don’t disagree - add VAT on ! Great, and then we can take either our state places up … win win we have more money to spend on holidays, deposits for houses for our kids, private tutors, extra cirricular activities etc and we can probably move to better areas with the outstanding state schools or OR we pay it it we can afford to keep our children there.

On some of the independent school committees they are working out how to charge the fees differently so the actual fees we will pay 20% on are low and the rest of the money is on stuff that’s exempt from VAT. They are also looking at changing the nature of the schools so the children get their state education allowance and then pay extras on top- like you would nursery extras.

The chance of labour implementing it is low. There are solicitors looking at it now and whether they can change the law to allow it.

So either way we’re not in a bad position - as most of the threads argue we are the wealthiest in The UK- some can’t afford food bills etc so we are incredibly lucky to have choice and it is true we must have money to
even contemplate spending £25k on each child in school.

So, he's the one working hard to pay the fees then? Somebody is working hard to pay the fees - or has worked hard, in the case of grandparents. What's your point?

Are we slamming consultants now 🤣

Regardless of what your view is, the numbers don't stack up.
Nearly £10k per child to teach in state schools is the number being quoted this week. So these parents are saving the tax payer nearly £10k per child paying for it privately.
The £1.3b increase due to vat will be impacted as parents will move their kids, or not start them privately, and already state schools are wait listed in some areas - parents are already applying to move.

The schools will probably have tax avoidance on their curriculum!!!!

We aren’t in the Uk but if it were me I’d be just looking at a grammar schools (tbf, I’d have applied to grammar if I was in the Uk anyway). I expect more competition for catchment property and grammar school places. Of course it won’t affect the state school Starmers’s kids are going to because you need a few mill to live in that catchment area. The hypocrisy there is mind-blowing.

It doesn't take many to off- roll to put a school in jeopardy though. It closes. You then have, as we gave locally, a school, from nursery up to 18, trying to find places for their kids. So no places for 2 or 3 year olds so their parents can work. Kids in year 10 and 12 half way through GCSE's and A levels, no where to go and no guarantee they can slot into another school at the right point who do the same subjects with the same exam boards. No-one seems to care, indeed many seem to delight in the misfortune.

I'm in the funny position that I've always been totally against private schooling till my dd was absolutely miserable in her state school. She couldn't deal with the large class size and lots of kids were unkind to her. We panicked. Obviously we threw out all our values hoping that we could buy her a more pleasant day with the disposable income we had then. I still am against the idea of private schools. All schools should be free and of decent quality. I also don't like lots of things about dd's private school but she's happy there.

We will struggle with the increased fees. Her school increase the fees anyway by upto 10% every year and they have already said that if labour comes into power they will increase by 20% again. Our fees are about 12k at the moment so even if lots of kids leave the school will be able to fill the seats with kids leaving more expensive schools and joining ours. So the school isn't worried and they obviously just care about their bottom line and not individual families.

I'd love to go back to one of our local state schools but it's not as easy as that. Unless you join in reception it's almost impossible to get a seat later. There are two decent primary state schools close to us but both already have a long waiting list.

And then dd is going to join secondary soon anyway and I really don't want her to go to any of the secondaries in our little town. From what I've heard racism and bullying are a massive problem and we aren't white.

So I don't know what to do. If we had known that there was a chance of fees going up massively we probably would have moved dd to the other state school rather than private. Now that she's settled in her school and considering how hard it is to actually get a place it's not that easy to move her out.

We will manage because we are lucky ajd privileged enough to manage but it still sucks especially since I still have to vote Labour. In the long run shooting myself in the foot is still better than another conservative government.

But many people have an issue that the very wealthy in the grammars or comps you are referring to are not going to be taxed more, but we are ALL paying for their privileges.

I set up a thread a few days ago about the responses and assumptions that automatically get thrown around about private school parents and it descended into the usual class wars.

With regards to people continuously going on about PE parents not making 'sacrifices' - all I will say is that many of them DO make sacrifices to send their kids to private school. Far more than the 7% of the population who send their kids to private school can afford to send their child/ren to private school but some choose not for their own reasons. The problem with MN is that nothing is viewed as relative or within the context of a particular group of ppl and everything gets brought down to the lowest level in order to somehow dismiss another viewpoint - apparently because there is a mother who has to go without food so her kids can eat, this means I am incapable of making a sacrifice.

On the VAT issue, we'll obviously suck it up and pay and whilst I haven't put out a post complaining about it, I don't agree actually with VAT on education. I still haven't seen a convincing argument anywhere that actually justifies the VAT on education which is a legal requirement up until the age of 16. The act of paying for education might be a 'luxury' but education up until the age of 16 is not. It's also interesting how passionate people have suddenly become about imposing VAT on school fees as if it was obvious all along...

We had a similar experience. Our hearts just broke when dd kept telling us about kids spitting at her, yelling at her or pushing her off her chair, etc. It really affected her confidence. At that time we had a a bit more of disposable income so we thought spending it on making dd's life a bit easier was totally sensible. Now we are not anymore in the same financial position but yes still lucky and privileged enough to be able to make it work. The teachers and the head are lovely but with that many children it's hard to keep an eye on everything that is happening. I still think it's a very good school and I wonder if the kids who were mean to dd have grown out of it by now. I still wish things had been different and she could have stayed at her local school, which was so much more convenient in so many ways but now it seems too late to take her out. We are kind of stuck with the school ajd just need to suck it up.

Also, most kids who joined dd's school after year 1 seem to have done so because they were bullied in their old school.

I’m glad I started this post - I wanted to
point out the ridiculousness of it all. Those revelling in parents who will struggle with the increase are vile! I hope to all those who are Not able to afford the increase but need to stay in the schools, either it won’t be imposed (most likely or to the full extent ) or your school will let you off and absorb it. We are potentially in this position where we are questioning whether it’s worth it, we might move ours, however those smug revelling mumsnet posters who think this is great and the poshies have been torn down a peg or two - I’m saying yeah ok it’s not awful is it! What a privilege we have to then pocket the money and go on some lovely holidays and move to a house with a pool! Always been the dream! So either way we’d be happy so no need to be smug with us- we are incredibly lucky and will have more disposable income!

Those posters saying haha you’re all panicking around now about it- not really. It’s a very first world problem and either option is fine: we can do like Kier and move to an area with great schools, as we have the ability to move and pay for houses in those areas.

I don’t disagree with the VAT being added as long as we then get our government education allownance between 7-10k annually. This is what some independent bodies are now looking to implement , like the nursery add on. So labour get their headline but it’s useful . I also think if it goes on school fees , we need it in healthcare and universities. All of which I use or have been to! Let’s not discriminate!

Exactly this…. It’s an ill thought out policy to cause division and get voters to vote. I think the knock on is too huge for them to follow through and Keir is probably shitting himself that it’s the only policy he has suggested , that can make some money for everything he will magically sort out. Albeit the money it would make is a huge 2% of the annual education budget for rate schools- so a drop in the ocean!

We did our sums before dd joined school and realised it was more affordable for us to join private school than to move to a catchment area with a great state school. Still cant afford to move. Even with the 20% increase it still works out cheaper to go private.

Also, there are no grammar schools in our shitty little town.

This is what people are saying will happen when speaking to parents. Why not move to the leafy lane schools and move into the catchment areas. I suppose it does what labour wants and forces the government to up their game for state education and places literally over night! I think it’ll be interesting the see it pan out!

Yes - lots of other westernised counties and those in the EU will not put VAT on their school fees for private schools. It’ll just do what has happened with businesses who won’t register in the UK and pay tax as there’s better tax breaks aboard so they register off shore. Same could happen- England won’t attract people to the country due the increase - better value to educate their children in non VAT paying countries.

I only agree with it if we get our state education funding from the government. At the moment it ofsets the VAT but as soon as it’s added then we would be paying twice . I can’t see it not being fought high up with lots of legalities stopping it being implemented.

Did you know that very few regions in the U.K. have grammar schools?

there's a bit of a financial crunch happening everywhere so many are feeling the pinch.
education in the uk seems to be very variable from community to community and even within communities.
and i don't think i have read any posts where a majority of parents are pleased with the special needs provisions and deterrent policies for antisocial behavior.
so right now i think it's an easy one to attack.
meanwhile grammar school parents who according to research captures a similar demographic are keeping their head low or feeling very smug that their child is attending a state school (with a very private like feel and population).

Removing your dc from private education is fine, it's your choice.

Expecting them to walk into a place at the best school near you is unrealistic, these are the ones that are full.

There are plenty of spaces available in state schools though.

Yes but it's different joining at reception or later.

Most people will get into the school in their catchment area if they join in reception. If people had known they might not have gone private in the first place. It's quite difficult to leave after reception especially if your child is reasonably settled in their private school.

Some areas have changed waiting lists to prioritise kids from private school. I live near 3 LAs who expanded catchments of outstanding schools into deprived areas (and of course ratings dropped) and now want to reverse the decision to take in the private school kids. There’s even serious discussion about making all out of catchment pupils (even existing ones) reapply for their places next year.

I wonder how long it will be before other LAs do this.

Also, a Hindu organisation wants to set up a private school that only charges £3k a year. If that happens and they get the funding of ISKON and BAPs it’s game over for the entire private school sector in the county.

In all seriousness, I think the VAT thing might not be a bad thing for private-school-using parents long-term, as it seems to have focused schools' minds a bit more on frugality and seperating-out what parents genuinely do and do not want to pay for.

I think we will see schools breaking up what they do into segments - basic tuition offers on which VAT is levied, and then extracurriculars and wraparound care and extras, which should escape VAT - and parents will have more freedom to pick and choose from what they want, and more of these extras will be made available to state school parents as well (for fees, rather than free of charge). In other words, schools will probably start behaving more like businesses than charitable foundations.

Some private schools might even end up becoming mainly or entirely about afterschool tutoring classes, extracurric and enhanced holiday care, topping up the educations of those using state schools who want something a bit extra.

Whether any of this actually improves or worsens social mobility is a difficult question. But the sector itself will "mostly" do fine, is my hunch. Some schools will close, but that was always going to happen anyway, given demographic trends.

Private schools may infact recruit more overseas students if they have less domestic students applying. 20% more is not going to make a lot of difference to affluent people who want the prestige of a UK education for their children, in fact, the more expensive, the more exclusive, so it's unlikely to be a major deterrent.

Your argument is fatuous @Bluewhitered as your DC are entitled to a state school place, if you choose to pay for the service elsewhere it does not entitle you to a rebate. Just as people without children don't get a rebate for their contribution in tax when not using the state school system. I don't have an NHS dentist but I don't expect the NHS to rebate my dentistry costs. Providing state education benefits us all as a society, not least in providing the future workforce that we will all need to rely on.

I appreciate you don't want to pay more for the private education service you have chosen (let's face it, nobody welcomes an increased bill ) but Mumsnet is full of threads going over the same ground ad nauseum.

@Bluewhitered We chatted and some said they’re happy to leave their job and do the school runs instead at state schools as they can no longer continue working.

In all honesty do you think the parents of the 93% of children at state schools gave up their jobs in order to do school runs? Isn't it more likely that state school working parents use breakfast and afterschool clubs and / or childminders.