Dilemma involving spitting children, childminders and proper apologies... warning: long!

[mammya]

Mumsnetters, I have no idea if IABU or not over this, but it is causing me to lose sleep as well as, I fear, perspective, so I thought a rant here might help me to get some rest. It's rather long, sorry about that...

The other day in the playground a friend of my dd spat on her during a rowdy game. They are both 7. It wasn't accidental and my dd was very, very upset . She cried so loud and hard that at first I thought she was seriously hurt.

The boy was told off by his mother and asked to apologise. This he did by shouting "sorry" in my dd's face. Needless to say that didn't help. His mother told him off again quite feebly for not saying sorry properly. Immediately he started complaining that his leg hurt so she started to make a fuss over him. At this point we left the playground.

We saw them again today in the playground and I spoke to the mum, told her that both DD and I were upset about the whole thing. She said that she could not force her ds to apologise properly if he didn't feel like doing it, that he was told off and that they talked about it again later, and that they phoned us that same evening so that the boy could speak to DD but we didn't answer the phone. I am a bit about this as we were in and I didn't hear the phone ringing, but I will have to take her word for it.

I told her that I thought it was still time for her ds to apologise, and that for instance he could write a little note to my dd, she replied that in that case if my dd was still upset then she should speak to him. Also her ds told her that he had been asking my dd to stop doing something, and she hadn't and he had been so angry that he couldn't stop himself spitting. My dd denies it and says he was laughing just before he spat.

Now I am wondering if I am making a mountain out of a molehill. The things that bother me particularly are:

• why should my dd, who has not done anything wrong, have to beg for an apology?
• if they phoned and we didn't answer, why didn't they leave a message or try again later? She knows we're always in on a school night. He could also have spoken to dd today when we saw them. If he was willing to apologise on the phone that evening, why not at any other time?
• it's not the first time that I see this scenario enacted, whereby the ds does something to upset another child, is mildly told off, then does something to attract his mum's attention in a more positive way, and is then made a fuss of, while the wronged child is being ignored. Often the wronged child is my dd... In a way this is the last straw and that's why I'm so upset about it.

The situation is further complicated by the fact that she is a good friend of mine who has been (and was to be again soon) dd's childminder, and a very good one too, apart from the issue I mentioned above.

I just don't know what to do about the whole thing. Should I talk to her about it again at the risk of losing a good childminder and friend? Should I just let it go?

What are your thoughts? What would you do? IABU?

Thanks if you read all of this, it's a bit of a mammoth post!

I understand why you are upset and I HATE spitting but the other mum is right - she can't force her DS to apologise if he doesn't want to. She could apologise for his behaviour though (i.e. I'm sorry that DS spat on you)

I don't think your DD should beg for an apology. If one isn't forthcoming, there isn't much you can do, other than explain to your DD why you are upset by it.

If she is a good friend, I would probably not take it any further. You have already told her you felt an apology was needed.

Sorry you are so upset. Spitting is truly disgusting and it is very tricky when a friend's child does not behave the way one would expect. Try not to lose sleep over it though.

Thanks for replying Underrated. Yes I know that she is right, in that she can't force him to apologise, but as you point out, SHE could have apologised. That's what I would have done at any rate. Also apparently he was ready to say sorry later, only we didn't answer the phone, which I think is a feeble excuse.

Again you are right that the trickiest thing her is that it is a friend's child...

I will try and get some sleep and hopefully things will be clearer in the morning.

FWIW, I have a similar situation - I look after my friend's DS 4 afternoons a week and I really dislike the way he behaves at times (lots of pushing, shoving, hitting often for no apparent reason). But, what annoys me more is that when we go to playgroup and his mum is there, she is either too busy talking to notice what he is doing, leaving the other mums going , or she sees it and laughs it off or makes a feeble apology to the parent of his victim the child on the receiving end but doesn't actually do anything to stop it happening again.

Pisses me off at times but, she is a friend and we have discussed it as tactfully as I feel I can, and I am her childminder, of sorts. We did have an email discussion about it from which she concluded that I just didn't like her DS. I made it very clear that I do like him, just not some of the things he does and I wanted to know how best to deal with it. So no, other than dealing with specfic issues as they arise, I don't feel I can do much else without losing a friend.

So, I do understand.

Perhaps if you dd feels like it she could tell him how much his behaviour upset her and how she totally dislikes spitting. It's not begging for an apology but telling the culprit just how much his behaviour made her feel. I use it with my boys and using their words to express emotions albeit very hard does help other children realize sometimes more than mum saying how much they have upset their friends.

It's really hard though. I cannot stand spitting and have even taken adults to task for doing it in public - So I may be unreasonable, but it's truly disgusting. You and your dd have my total sympathy. I would ask her how she would feel about telling him. Give her the power to handle the situation more if she wants.

I think this is one of those 'life lessons' moments really for your DD. Yes, it may have been upsetting, but other kids do unpleasant things sometimes and if the boy is not going to go further with an apology then she has to accept that he hasn't behaved very well.
My DS behaved appallingly in the playground when he was a toddler (better now that he's at school) and I was forever on the wrong end of disapproving faces/discussions from parents of well behaved children. Its really wearying and exhausting and maybe your friend is ground down by it all. I'm not excusing her behaviour but I think you need to support her, not demand from her what you think your DD needs. All your dd actually needs is for you to sympathise with her and explain things to her. Am I making any sense??? Sorry if confusing!

Agree with everyone that you can't make him apologise and although his behaviour was unacceptable, it is maybe time to drop it.

However, if she is supposed to be childminding dd, I would reconsider that. How does dd feel about that? From one you say this incident is not a one off but part of a pattern of behaviour. Are the boy and dd really friends who just have the odd spat or do they really not get along with each other? If the latter I would have to give the arrangement serious thought although I realise that you might lose this woman's friendship as a result.

This is why sometimes it is a good thing to keep childminding out of family/friend loops. It makes it very difficult to deal with certain problems that crop up.

I had a friendship finally fall apart due to behaviour of friend's ds, who was mean and abusive and absolutely impossible to be around in any normal capacity. Friend made no effort at all to rein him in, always made excuses for his behaviour - he's tired, he's been ill, he's feeling insecure . It just reached a point where it was simply unpleasant to visit her because of his behaviour. So I stopped getting together with her, and eventually the friendship just died.

I think it's hard sometimes to remember that just because you and she are friends, it doesn't mean your kids will be friends. Good luck - these types of situations can sometimes be a bit of a minefield to navigate!

I agree it is so hard. I have had a smiliar situation to contend with recently. Your daughter will more than likely bounce back and be ok..reading your post I was just wondering if this is about something a little more than the issue mentioned. Sometimes we see our children as little versions of us and try to right any wrongs that were done to us as children. Bit of psychobabble nonsense but may be useful. Hope you dont think im speaking out of turn. Good luck with your situation, hope the friendship lasts (if you want it to)

I think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. It was poor behavior and it shouldn't have happened, but sometimes when a child is in a mood, there is no making them do a meaningful apology. It really is up to the parent at that point to in their own way make it clear to their own child that the behavior was unacceptable. If there isn't a history of poor behavior on the part of this child, and since you obviously trust the mother's parenting skills (since you let her look after your child), then I think it's really out of order to start telling her how to parent her child. It was clear that your dd was upset and attempts at an apology were made. You shoudl let her do the rest in the privacy of her own home and in the context of her own child's behavior. For example there are plenty of children who don't find having to make an apology a deterrent to bad behavior.

In addition, in my experience, most boys and very few girls go through a spitting stage between 5 and 7. And if they are brought up well, they get over it quickly. If this boy isn't generally badly behaved otherwise, then chances are he'll get over the phase and be a perfectly good playmate for your dd in the future.

Yes, mountain out of molehill I think.
You told the child and parent at the time that your dd was upset. She told him off and tried to get him to apologise. She also said that she dealt with him in her own way by discussing it further at home with him and trying to phone you. I think you should leave it there tbh, you cant undo what happened by keep pressing the point that it was wrong.

Kids will forget this much quicker than adults who will continue to seethe whilst the children merrily play their games.

Many people have a visceral reaction to spitting, don't blame them however you are, IMHO over-reacting and should not continue to pursue an apology that is acceptable to your ears

the mother told the boy off immediately - big tick

she made him apologise - big tick

they're 7, it is rare that you can get the exact right supplicant tone when a child is being made to apologise

you need, again IMHO, to back right the hell up and leave it alone as now you ARE being unreasonable and blowing it way way out of proportion

HTH

Thanks for all your replies.

I suspected I was blowing this out of proportion as you all are saying. I will back off and let it drop.

I'll have to think further about the childminding arrangements though. I suspect I will stick with them though, as my dd likes going there and the friend in question is an excellent childminder, and the other options are not brilliant. The children are really friends, although they do fight as children who spend a lot of time together will. In this case there were other children present, some of the boy's school friends, and I think that contributed to the whole thing because he was 'acting tough' in front of them.

I have suggested to my dd that she tell him how upset she was by his behaviour, whether she will do it is another story: she is quite dreamy and laid back and tends to forget such things, which is not a bad attitude to have!

Anyway thanks again for your no-nonsense advice.

I do think you're dragging the whole thing out and making into a bigger issue than it is. A lot of children really don't know how to apologise and I think he probably shouted the apology in embarrassment. His behaviour was dreadful but I think you would be better to let it go for now. Is your dd normally happy when she is minded there? Does he make her life a misery or do they by and large get on well?

sorry X posts!
I think if your dd is happy there and likes going, then you are just as well to stick with the current arrangement. A good childminder is hard to find!

Spitting is horrible but I don't think that chn really understand why that is. The child's mum did try to get him to apologise. I think you have put your friend in a difficult situation.

The children are 7 years old.

Spitting is not nice.

The boy that did the spitting knows it was wrong, and he did apologise.

He may not have hired an orchestra and presented your DD with a bunch of roses as he apologised, but he is 7.

I don't think you are doing your DD any favours by dragging this situation out any longer.

Things like this will happen in life, and you cannot control how other people behave, only how you yourself react and behave.

Tell her that sometimes people do unkind or unpleasant things, and that you understand she was upset and shocked by what happened.

Suggest that if something like this happens again, to walk away and come and tell you straight away.

Remind her that the boy has now said he is sorry, and it is over.

I also don't think it is worth falling out with your friend over.

If you truly feel your DD is in danger from socialising with this boy, then just see the mother without either of the children.

But it is unreasonable to expect the children to behave like adults over this.

I don't think that making the boy write a letter of apology will ensure that it is any more sincere than the verbal one he gave at the time.

You can't force anyone to be sorry.

Ah, my post was way too late!

agree with the others. time to drop it but keep an eye out for any future bad behaviour. you don't know what happened to boy when he got home, his mum may have taken a tougher line when they got home. this sometimes happens to me, i make DS apologise at the time and then we go home for a 'serious chat' and no TV afterwards.

I am a mum of a DS (8) who spits. I am truly disgusted and appalled at this sort of behaviour.

I am in agreement with Shells - the mum is probably worn down and exhausted by what he does - this is how I feel quite a lot of the time.

If he doesn't want to apologise nicely the first time then he probably won't want to do it another time.

Unfortunately for my DS, if something goes wrong that is out of his control it starts the ball rolling for all sorts of other things and it is like a downward spiral for a few days after.

My DS does not go without punishment at home.

Thanks again for the replies. I do love a bit of mumsnet common sense

My period has just started, that might go some way to explain why I got so upset!

Bellavita and Shells, I don't think that the mum is worn down and exhausted by what he does. To be fair he doesn't go around spitting all the time and although he can be rowdy, he is a nice little boy and both my dd and I like him.
Thanks for your point of view though, it's one I will try to keep in mind when faced with this kind of situation.

Mammya, I think you've got the point and understand what we're saying. But I thought I would just add a bit of general advice...

If you respect a person, you have to also respect that their parenting choices are the best for their child. For example, I have a very bright and dreamy son who has fairly little immediate control over his actions. I can change his behavior (which is generally quite good) over time through repetition and reminder, but immediate instructions are usually fairly useless. And punishment is almost a complete waste of time because 1) he already knows when he has done something naughty and already feels bad about it without my telling him and 2) has such an active imagination that literally within seconds has forgotten that he is being punished and is busy daydreaming up some new fantasy. However my daughter is a complete opposite personality. Immediate punishment is extremely effective on her and does deter future behavior. Needless to say, I disciipline and interact with my two children in two completely different ways.
An outside parent watching me might easily think that I have let my ds get away with murder and been overly harsh with my dd. Yet, the reality is that I am just parenting in the most appropriate and effective way for each child.
Hope you feel better soon!