to think that the definition of ant-social behaviour needs to be a little more rigid

[OrmIrian]

All the residents in our street have had a letter tonight from the community safety officer about anti-social behaviour in the street. The anti-social behaviour consists of children (up to the age of about 13) talking, playing on their skateboards and riding their bikes. They are not foul-mouthed, aggressive or destructive in anyway. But there is one elderly lady who is totally paranoid about them. She comes out and shouts at them, tells them to go down the other end of the street to play (in a cul-de-sac that is the dangerous end where the traffic comes in ). She has also been known to swear at them. Also a man with a van who struts out of his house like a turkey cock with aggression problems whenever anyone goes near his van. Despite the fact that I think the whole business is a storm in a teacup I have now told my DCs that they can't ride the bikes or use their skateboards. (I already ban them from football for obvious reasons).

We've been told to make them play in the park which is fine during most of the day but from about 5pm their are groups of much older children who hang around and truly are intimidating. Is it a good idea to encourage younger children to join in with them Also dog sh*t is a major problem.

So if anti-social behaviour can be ..and I quote " any behaviour that causes nuisance, alaem or distress to the community" the children could be in trouble for doing anything at all! If someone decides to object, they will be breaking the law. As far as i know riding bikes on the road isn't illegal but if it 'distresses' someone, they can be in trouble.

So I am girding my loins to write a polite letter asking for specific information about what exactly constitutes anti-social behaviour so that I can ensure my children are not guilty of it. Oh..yes...and if behaving in a threatening and abusive manner to minors doesn't constitute anti-social behaviour. But not yet. I am too cross!

My ds used to do a paper round which involved him going down and obviously back up a quiet cul-de -sac. Like most paper boys this he did on his bike or very occasionly on his skateboard. One old lady regularly confronted him about this and complained to paper shop because his riding past made her dog bark and he was damaging the road with his skateboard!!!!!!He was delivering newspapers for goodness sake on his own mostly so no gang warfare either!!!!

Well said, expat - we're blamed whatever we do.

On the whole, I've unfortunately found the UK quite un-child friendly.

It's sad to say, and may be region dependent, but it's been my general experience.

She actually told him that "they didn't want his sort round there".....I had to be restrained from going round to ask exactly what his "sort" was. I wasn't aware that delivering newspapers was a criminal activity

Bl**dy hell lioatheironing! That is so awful. Why does everyone have to be so aggressive and suspicious.

sorry- i know i'm late to the discussion but thats ridiculous!

It's perfectly acceptable AND normal for children to play outside together- its part of growing up and cul-de-sacs are perfect for this type of 'young' family. they soon complain about obese children on computers all day yet have a moan when they are out exercising! Personally i would have gone out to white van man myself and told him he was on MY property and to not p* off and not talk to my children again.definately fight to prove your point- children playing is NOT anti-social. Aggressive middle aged men with inferiority complexis are!

Orm,
From my dh (community!).
Try to find out exactly what behaviour they are talking about. Is it a community support officer, or a community safety officer as that will have a different outlook on it (as in it has come from the council not the police).

Be proactive. Contact your local police and tell them you wish to speak to a neighbourhood beat officer about two specific neighbours that are bullying the local children and how to resolve the problem. This seems to be a common problem. I think some of them start because a particular group of youths or an individual has caused ongoing problems with a neighbour, and eventually that neighbour associates ALL youths with the problem. Or the neighbour is simply a nut. Either way, instead of getting put on the defensive, go to the offensive and push the issue from the angle that they are harrassing the neighbourhood children. Your child being on his own front wall is a prime example. Unfortunately, if the police only hear over and over from the neighbour, they never really get the full story. It's that whole "squeaky wheel" thing.

Thanks jofebo4 - that's precisely what I am going to do. We need to know what it is that they are/are not allowed to do. Otherwise I can't let them out. I don't want my 11yr old served with an ASBO for sitting on a wall!

Triggles "I think some of them start because a particular group of youths or an individual has caused ongoing problems with a neighbour, and eventually that neighbour associates ALL youths with the problem" That is what happened with the old lady. About 7 yrs ago a group of kids (from another street I think, mine were too young at that point) used the side of her house for football practice. Day in day out all summer. She was intimidated and I don't blame her. Which is one of the reasons I don't let my DCs play with a football. I think with her it's just festered until now she's completely paranoid. The van man is just a git! He's only moved in recently and has made no attempt to get to know any of us or any of the children.

First draft. Any comments?

Dear CSO,

Thankyou for your letter of 2nd April 2008, with regard to anti-social behaviour in Yob Street.

Would you please be able to clarify for me exactly what consitutes ?anti-social? behaviour? In your letter you describe it as ?anything that causes distress or annoyance to local residents? (I can?t remember the exact wording as I left the poisonouse little missive at home). This seems to be a very open-ended defintion, implying that anything a child does in the street, could be defined as ?anti-social? by any of the residents that took exception to it. You mention riding bicycles; obviously riding a bicycle on the pavements is an offence (although everyone other than the children in our street seem to have impunity to do so throughout the town as I find out when I go running or walking with my children), would it be acceptable for them to ride their bicycles on the road? When it comes to football I already discourage my children from doing this in the street for obvious reasons, and because I am aware that in the past youths playing football have caused problems for residents in this street. Is it acceptable for them to ride skateboards? Or sit on their own front walls and chat? It does seem that in the minds of some adults, any child outside their own front doors is guilty of anti-social behaviour. I would like to know exactly what my children should not do so as to avoid committing an offence.

You mention the park as an alternative play area. Whilst I am aware we are lucky to have such an amenity on our doorstep, and my children already make good use of it, there are some drawbacks. You refer to the issue of dog faeces which is undoubtedly unpleasant and a health hazard. But the the bigger issue from the point of view of parents? of younger children is the presence of much older teenagers that congregate in the play area, smoke, use bad language, damage the play equipment. This seems to happen mostly from the early evenings onwards, once the better weather and lighter evenings begin. These youths make the park out of bounds to younger children from 5 or 6 pm just when the children are home from school and have done their homework and are free to play. If the children can?t go to the park and are not permitted to be in the street, and none of the houses have gardens large enough for playing in, it means that the children are confined to the house. In a time when childhood obesity is on the rise, and the government wishes to encourage outside play, this does not seem a healthy outcome.

I would also like to take this opportunity to complain about the aggressive and abusive manner in which some residents speak to children at times. Whilst most residents are pleasant and approachable, know the children and their parents, there are a small minority who do not. Children have been shouted at and sworn at by grown adults who should know better. My 8 yr old daughter has been so distressed by this that she won?t play outside at all these days.

I would very much appreciate your response to this. This street has always been a community in the true sense. I am sure you would agree that it would be a shame if this community spirit was lost

Message withdrawn

Indeed! But residents can ignore what goes on there quite happily

Great stuff Orm.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but I would make a few changes to the first paragraph to make it punchier.

I would remove the 'poisonous little missive' comment. I would also cut 'everyone other than the children in our street seem to have impunity to do so throughout the town as I find out when I go running or walking with my children' because you want to stay straight on the point and this is a separate issue.

I, personally, would present your list of 'can they do this?' questions as bullet points. This is just a matter of taste but it would make it stand out more.

I might think about going on the offensive more by putting the para about the people being aggressive to children at the beginning rather than the end.

I think it is a really good letter and comes across as calm and reasonable but determined.

Thank kathy. The 'poisonous little missive' was an aside for MN consumption only And I did wonder about the bikes on pavements ramble - I'll cut it out although it is one of my gripes I must admit.

Orm,
Very good
I would maybe include "Every Child Matters"

here

The proper website is down, but that should tell you something. Maybe they need some of their own policies chucked back at them.

The children have a RIGHT tp play there.

Good luck
You're doing a good thing!!

referring to policies is good. It would not only be persuasive, it would also show that you are a force to be reckoned with.

Thanks purpleduck. I'll have a good nose later.

I'm afraid I agree with the poster who says you need to go on the offensive. There's not much you can do about the little old lady (who spent her childhood blissfully playing in traffic free streets) but with white van man, why don't you call the police if he behaves agresively?

They will give his van the once over whilst they are there and pick up any little details like no insurance, MOT, bald tires, faulty brake lights etc etc.

People round here complain about kids playing in the street (including my dcs) but although I was hurt at first, I now completely ignore it. They don't like it - I don't care. My dc's WILL play in the street and only the threat of going to prison will stop me.

Well that's the point nametaken. Someone has complained to the police and if I don't so something about it I am left with the options of stopping my children playing outside or potentially letting themselves had an ASBO served against them. The police are going to 'investigate children/families that they suspect'.

He often parks on double yellow lines. But then again, most of us do as there isn't enough space to park.

Make sure you include definite examples of children being unreasonably harrassed, the one with your boy sitting on his own front wall has got to be in! Show them in examples rather than words that this is arising from a particular small number of neighbours with unreasonable expectations. I would write something like this:

Dear CSO,

Thankyou for your letter of 2nd April 2008, with regard to anti-social behaviour in Yob Street.

Would you please be able to clarify for me exactly what consitutes “anti-social” behaviour? In your letter you describe it as “anything that causes distress or annoyance to local residents”.

However, this seems to be a very open-ended defintion, which lays local children open to accusations of "anti-social behaviour" for virtually any activity by any neighbour who happens to dislike or be afraid of children.

Sadly, there is a problem with two such neighbours in our area. In the past, my children have been confronted and harrassed by these neighbours for sitting quietly on their own front wall and chatting// etc etc add any examples.//

We are very anxious that our children should not give genuine reason for concern about their behaviour and therefore need support from the council to identify what behaviour would constitute anti-social behaviour.

You mention riding bicycles. Obviously riding a bicycle on the pavements is an offence. However, we cannot accept that riding a bicycle on the road is an offence if done by a child, more than by an adult.

We already accept that football is an activity that should be discouraged on the streets and pavements.

We would appreciate clarification as to what would be considered acceptable in relation to riding skateboards?

It would appear that there are a couple of people living in this area who are caused distress and annoyance by the mere sighting of a child in the street. We understand that they may have suffered from genuine anti-social behaviour by other children in the past. However, this cannot be allowed to serve as an excuse for keeping unoffending children out of public areas, such as the streets. Our children live here and must be allowed to be visible.

We would therefore appreciate a speedy answer outlining precisely what the council regards as acceptable behaviour from children.

We would also like advice as to how to deal with harrassment from the afore-mentioned neighbours, as our children are getting increasingly intimidated.

Thanks Cory. That is a great deal more business-like. I will trim mine accordingly.

I know how you feel, we live in a cul de sac where all the children play out and have an old bag lady like yours. Find out what she has actually told the police. Ours lies.

She called the police and told them there were thugs running riot in the school next to the estate at least twice. She knows very well on Friday night's the scouts use the field (scout hut on school grounds and her grandson is a cub!)

She came to us once and said son and his friends were damaging trees. Again lies. She just can't stand children. She used to help out with the church parents and toddlers then get upset when the children used the paints. She also expected 2 year olds to sit there and be silent.
Some people just don't like children but they don't seem to understand it is their problem not the children's.