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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think the council should not throw my young nephews out onto the street?

98 replies

Lookingforinfo · 02/04/2008 15:12

OK I confess at the start I am looking for info, rather than comments on reasonableness, but I wasn't sure where else to post.

This all started when my X-SIL was most definately being unreasonable herself.... my DB gave her all the equity from the house when they got divorced (80K) so that she could buy a small flat for her & the kids (4 & 6 YO). Instead of doing this she moved into her mum's council house and put half the money into trust for the kids (it is now locked up until they are 18 and she can't get it back). The remainder was frittered away over a couple of years (half going on a failed business idea).

Anyway, her mum died recently and the council have now told her that it is her own fault that she doesn't have any money left and she is not allowed to stay in the council house. They have told her she must move out and move into B&B accomodation (which she then needs to claim for from the council). My DB can't help any more because he is flat broke (and he has nowhere himself where he could take the children).

Can the council do this? And does this sound plausible (my XSIL is by all accounts going spare about it all so I guess it is true and not just a ruse for more money from DB)? What should she do? If she just refuses to leave the council house, will it all go to court and will she be kicked out anyway? I would be the first to say that she has been very very stupid to do this with the money (and I am sure that putting some of it in trust was probably a deliberate ploy to avoid 'wasting it on rent') but that is by the by, she is where she is and I don't really know what the council expect her to do (they seem to think she can magic the money back). I am very that my nephews are in this position and don't know what to advise DB to do..... any ideas?

OP posts:
tiredemma · 02/04/2008 15:15

A family member was placed in a BB recently for two days with her 14mth old daughter, she then obtained a council property.

So yes- they can do this- your nephews wont be 'on the street' but they can be put in to temporary housing.

edam · 02/04/2008 15:19

Oh dear. She should contact her local Citizen's Advice Bureau and the housing charity Shelter for information about her rights and homelessness.

Original poster
Lookingforinfo · 02/04/2008 15:19

From what I can tell the council have said that she won't be put on the list for a council property because she has 'intentionally' put herself in this position, so it looks like it might be more than just a few days... I have no idea if they are calling her bluff or really washing their hands of the situation...

OP posts:
Triggles · 02/04/2008 15:20

How long was she living with her mum in the council house? If it was 6 months, can't she inherit the tenancy? I know in some cases that can be done.

zippitippitoes · 02/04/2008 15:22

ypou cant inherit a council house so not unreasonable from that pint of view i think

quite sensible to have put the money into a trust as it means nit hasnt got frittered

you aren't homeless until you are as i understand it

most councils now have a bid system for properties

hope it works out for her

lilyloo · 02/04/2008 15:23

she would likely get on the council list but who knows how long she would be in temporary for. My sis got evicted from her rented for mix up with rent and was offered a sheltered accom miles away from where we live and her ds school. She managed to find another private rent but has done it all up and now landlord wants her out to move in himself after 6 months! So she back to square one. It seems so wrong but that's how the council works it seems.

hecate · 02/04/2008 15:23

She needs to go to the CAB. The council may argue she is 'intentionally homeless' due to her choices. (Basically translated as You made your bed, you lie in it) In which case they don't have to help her. I'd tell her to be careful if I were you. A few years ago I was in a bad situation and homelessness was looming. I had my 2 boys and during discussions with the CAB and council, I was told that if it was decided we were intentionally homeless, they would have no responsibility to house us, they may find a hostel place or social services would take the kids into temporary foster care while me and dh found ourselves a place. Thankfully that's not the way things turned out, but the thought terrified us. She needs to get some advice.

And yes, if she refuses to leave they will go to court to have her removed.

I thought that council houses transfer the tenancy once - unless it was transfered from someone else to her mum already? Or do they not do that any more?

She needs to calm down as she doesn't have very many rights and shouting is going to make them dig their heels in. She has to be a bit humble and asking for their help in order to get the best outcome.

Original poster
Lookingforinfo · 02/04/2008 15:36

hecate, that sounds truly awful - glad you got things sorted yourself. from what I can tell she assumed she would just get the tenancy transferred as she was unemployed & had two children, but the council just said no. She has been there a year or so I guess.

thanks for advice - I never even thought of calling 'shelter' but I have found the number of the local office (fortunately there is a 'housing aid' office in their town) and I will get my DB to call them for advice. my XSIL ix exactly the type of person to shout instead of eatign humble pie so I will also padd that very good advice on...

OP posts:
Original poster
Lookingforinfo · 02/04/2008 15:36

pass

OP posts:
Triggles · 02/04/2008 20:38

actually, while you can't technically "inherit" a council property, many tenancy agreements have a clause in it that states if you are an adult relative living in property with the listed tenant for a specific period of time (i believe it's 6 months) that you can take over the tenancy. Our tenancy agreement has this in it. It's worth checking if she's been there awhile.

KerryMum · 02/04/2008 20:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

elfsmum · 02/04/2008 20:48

Hi LFI

usually the grounds to succeed to the tenancy is that she would have to have been resident for the 12 months prior to her mums death, and be over 18.

So if she has been there for 12 months prior to the death then technically she should be able to succeed - they will check if they have been told, if she is on the electoral register, if she had been declared on any housing benefit claim, if applicable, and also on council tax records (ie if her mother wasn't claiming the single persons rebate)

If the money is in trust it belongs to the children not to her.

The only reason the council wouldn't help her are if they are declaring her as intentionally homeless, so it depends upon what criteria the council are using for intentionally homeless - time will be a factor here - she also needs this in writing to present to CAB.

CAB are usually great in things like this, so she needs to get herself there asap.

I once worked with a person who's ex partner had committed suicide, and he was being told that the 3 DC's would have to leave their home (he lived in a flat and didn't have room for them all) until I pulled out a load of case law and advised him that the children had the right to succeed to the tenancy and he could hold it in trust for them until the eldest was 18 and could legally hold the tenancy - he kept the house.

The housing person she's speaking to may not know what they're talking about - with all due respect to them of course.

expatinscotland · 02/04/2008 20:51

Yes, the council is within its rights to do this.

She is a not a tenant and has not lived there long enough to have a claim to tenancy.

It is her fault for not sorting out housing with that much money, especially because she was given the money for hte express purpose of housing herself and her children.

That's a lot of money to many who live in dire need of social housing - more than they can ever hope to realise or they wouldn't be sitting on those endless lists.

Why should she have priority over others who have languished on lists for years out of desperate need because she cocked up?

Sorry, I don't have a lot of sympathy for her and I think the council has a good case.

I could not imagine frittering away £40K when I was living with my mother.

I've never heard of any council allowing someone to inherit a tenancy after living there only ten months. Usually, it's years and you have to prove it.

iheartdusty · 02/04/2008 20:53

it is called 'succeeding' to the tenancy

thought I'd mention that in case she needs to look it up or check the agreement.

usually it is 12 months living with the tenant that is required, and it can only happen once, so if her mum used to be a joint tenant with dad (say) and dad died, that would count as one succession when mum became the single tenant.

Freckle · 02/04/2008 20:56

She may also find that she is ineligible for benefits as the benefits agency might consider that she has deliberately disposed of capital in order to qualify for benefits. Unless she can show that the £40,000 that she didn't place in trust for the children was spent on absolute essentials, she may be up shit creek without a paddle.

It is unlikely that she and the children will be left without a roof over their heads, but the council is probably right to state that they have no statutory duty to house her because she gave up her home and frittered away the proceeds of sale.

Joash · 02/04/2008 20:58

From what I remember about the work that I did with 'Shelter' she would have had to live with her mother for years, not months in order to stand a chance of inheriting the tenancy (and then probably have NOT profitted from selling a home).

The other issue is that the council do have legal duty to provide a roof over hers and the childrens heads. This does not necessarily mean a house, I have a friend who (is recognised by the council as Homeless) has been in temporary accomodation for almost four years now and is moved (at her expense) at least every six months. She has three children. Sometimes even being placed in one room accommodation for all five of them.

LIZS · 02/04/2008 20:59

If they evict her, her family can go onto the housing list and soudns as if thet have offered emergency accommodation. Sorry but she isn't entitled to circumvent the system, and technically is potentially squatting since she wasn't a dependent relative of the tenant. Whilst she may have squirrelled the money away with good intentions it may be seen as having been her asset and count against her. Not sure of the legalities but she may still be able to release it if needs be.

HappyMummyOfOne · 02/04/2008 22:03

Freckle makes a very good point, if they see on her bank statements that she has spent 40k instead of using it for a mortgage/rent then she may not get any help with rent or IS etc as they take deprivation of capital in order to claim benefits very seriously.

She may be forced to use the money in her childrens account for rent etc.

expatinscotland · 02/04/2008 22:17

They ALWAYS ask to see your bank statements when you apply for HB.

They even make photocopies of them.

Ditto Working Tax/Child Tax Credit.

Joash · 02/04/2008 22:18

They will also ask to see a letter from agent/solicitor showing how much the house sold for and how much was left over.

dramaqueen · 02/04/2008 22:22

Kerrymum why are they bastards? She managed to dispose of more money then most of us will ever see at one time in our bank accounts. She has put her boys in this situation, no-one else. Having said that I do feel sorry for her children.

milliec · 02/04/2008 22:23

Message withdrawn

bonkerz · 02/04/2008 22:26

when my mum died she had a lodger and my neice living at her council house. The neice was declared on the tenancy agreement and the lodger was not. My neice eventually got a council house but did spend 4 months in a B&B with her 3 month old baby and the lodger was kicked out. If you ExSIL was declared by her mum as living there then she should be able to take over the tenancy as long as the property is suitable. If her mum did not tell anyone she was living there (and therofre continued to claim HB and Council Tax benefit and single occupancy discount) then the council wont help her. The B&B is a temporary offer, i too was in a B&B when my exDP kicked me and DS out on the streets when he was 10 weeks old, we were in B&B for 9 weeks and eventually had to go into private rent and it took a year before we got offered a one bed council flat.

KerryMum · 02/04/2008 22:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gagarin · 02/04/2008 22:32

She'll have to look for private rented